Fisetin experimentation one year (reposted as topic for info purposes)
Hello everyone I wanted to make my first post here as I have been doing a fisetin routine for a year now just about and I have results that are not placebo and very profound. I honestly do not know if this is the senylotic effect or some kind of interaction with fisetin in other ways.
To get it out of the way, I will give the fast and short version. I am taking Swanson’s Fisetin. I take around 2g a day for 3 days( now 2.5g). I repeat this for 3 or 4 times with varying intervals (I was trying to find optimal intervals).
My my first regimen was 3 days treatment with a 2 week delay, then a 3 week delay, then a 4 week delay, then a 2 month delay. I am now convinced a 3 week delay is the minimal amount of time you want taking this the way I am, though I will continue with 4 week delay for safety sake and because of my own observations.
So results. Well I feel like this must play on hormone levels in the short term. Immediately after starting a 3 day regimen, usually on day 2 or 3 I feel strong as hell. In particular my legs are tight and super strong. My muscles in general are firmer and overall strength is amazing. My mind is clear, thinking concise anddynamic. I feel more dominant, self confident, and aggressive. Libido is enhanced as well. This all led me to believe that this acts as a testosterone mimic or elevates testosterone in the blood which is why I cycle monthly and then take a few months off every so often.
i can tell you that at the age of 43 this makes me legitimately remember what early 20s feels like. The effects of one 3 day regimen last strongly for 2 weeks and even on for 4 weeks. In particular during week one and two I was amazed at the amount of pure emotion and clarity of the world around me. I could hear and appreciate sounds and colors seemed more vibrant. Mentally I am on overdrive with super memory and crystal clear logical thinking. I remember the first time I took this I was shocked. I was in a cafe just looking at a coke I had bought in a glass amazed at how more real and present it looked. A small thing but it was profound just how the world seemed more alive. It literally felt like going back in time 20 years.
So for long term effects. A stronger posture, better muscle tone, improved gum health, vastly more energy, in fact this has become all the norm after around 8 months of this. Many of the effects I described in the first two weeks following a 3 day regimen do taper off to an extent, but never completely.
As far as side effects there has not been anything thus far. When you are taking the 3 day dose you might get amped up a little jittery but that gives way quickly after the last dosage and it normalizes into a even effect that is positive in nature. I was very concerned about hair loss as I could not believe how impactful this was. But I have noticed no hair loss at all. I cycle it with a 3 or 4 week break to ensure that there is no negative effect on hair or otherwise. With a two week interval I had some scalp itchiness. That was enough to back me off to to four week intervals.
I honestly think that most of what I experienced is not the senylotic effect. It’s way too fast and profound. But I have no ill effects and feel incredible. And overall I have a youthful vigor and look and feel younger. I think a senylotic evaluation, as far as a laymen just observing himself goes ,can only really be done after 2 years or so. However the initial results ( especially gum health) and from what else I can observe are overwhelmingly positive.
I can tell you that this does have an affect and it is profound and noticeable. How much of this is hormone I do not know. But I have other improved health as well, however it’s always tricky to quantify this objectively yourself sometimes.
Good luck on your experiments. Let me know if this has the same effect for you. I just bought Swanson’s with nouvestein. Nothing fancy. Cheap and on amazon.
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Thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like great results. Now, if only we knew what happens after you do this for 10-20 yrs.
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Karl yea that is the issue with senolytics in humans you need a very long time line. It’s one thing if you had a control body double of yourself to compare to, but obviously we don’t. But I can honestly recommend fisetin for the other benefits anyways. It’s the closest thing to a miracle supplement that I’ve ever taken.
I will I’ll continue to use until such time other senolytics become more advanced and accessible.
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I’d add that if you look at people taking male to female hormones that maybe this gives us a rough estimate at how fast senescent cell clearance in humans might show results. In both of these scenarios cells receive different signals and must adapt and change.
Typically with hormone treatments you see results in around 6 months. It stands to reason that the absence of SASP from senescent cells might affect cells in a rough timeline similar to this. There have been a lot of health benefits that are now the norm for me that showed up more or less around the 6 month mark. A year and a half ago I was a different person.
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Quick question.... did you use any oil with the fisetin? How about any of the other synelytics? Mayo clinic mixed the Fisetin with oil which supposedly enhanced the assimilation.... sounds like you just used it on an empty stomach? Pretty amazing report...thanks for the Guidance...
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Yea I just took it pretty much in line with how they did the mouse experiments. I upped it to 3g for each dosage. So every month I take 3g three days in a row. With Swansons that is a bottle every day. I am certain a lot of the effect is elevated testosterone levels so I am a bit cautious with the frequency.
Before I started this regimen I was lethargic, easily tired, and had brain fog. Also it seems as you get older you tend to slowly fade out so you are not as present in the world perceptually as you once were. It’s something you may never notice really as it’s a slow effect.
Taking Fisetin turned the lights back on and suddenly I remembered how it was to see the world when I was in my early twenties. The sounds became clear and vibrant and interesting, the colors were amazing in the world. It was a little overwhelming at first. Now up I am kind of used to it but still get a mini effect when I do a new dosage.
My mind is as sharp as it has ever been. My memory is ridiculously good. I feel as if I have never been more intelligent in my whole life. And I can stay up way into the early morning hours.
its a game changer if you have started to feel the ravages if time. Also when I work out I get ripped pretty easy now.
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David C How often do you do the 3 day senolytic treatments? Do you take the fisetin with a meal or between meals when you do the 3 day treatments? Do you eat like you normally do during those days? Thanks
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David C Do you have an update for us? I wish we could know what the optimal interval/dosage is. Anyway, I'd love to hear an update!
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ripeideas
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Joe F my PSA is still extr
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Joe F extremely low ( good). Twice a month, 500 3 t
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Joe F times a day, rv
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ripeideas After a lot of research on Fisetin, the dose I finalized is 20mg/kilo of bodyweight, I do 3 days of that dose, 2,100mg in my case - 2.1g and give it a break for 3-4 months, it not good to clean out the senescent cells completely, some small amount is beneficial. I consider this optimal! David C's dose is too much. I hope this helps.
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Joe F Are you referring to a substance that lowers your PSA or looking for something to bring it down?
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John Ramos
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Joe F Huh?
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John Ramos Thank you, John. I'm concerned that 3 months may even be too often, but that's just a hunch not based on facts. Have you read the recent article about Viagra possibly helping to prevent Alzheimer's by up to 70%?! I'm a woman so I can't get a prescription. Viagra is a vasodilator so I'm going to go the natural route and take Horny Goat Weed...
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ripeideas Here's one article about it- Can Women Take Horny Goat Weed? | livestrong https://www.livestrong.com/article/460069-can-women-take-horny-goat-weed/
And another interesting one - Grape seed chemical allows mice to live longer by killing aged cells https://www.newscientist.com/article/2300346-grape-seed-chemical-allows-mice-to-live-longer-by-killing-aged-cells/
I take Grape Seed Extract daily.
Also look at AKG, I take CA-AKG(Calcium AKG) but they say it's the AKG, not necessarily the Calcium version, greatly increases lifespan. It's cheap.
I've done a lot of research... Fisetin is somewhat confusing...
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John Ramos hey, thanks!
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John Ramos
A recent paper show that Icariin (a substance found in horney goat weed) can reverse the macrobiota of old mice to a youthful state and other positive effects as well. It is an interesting substance and that Icarrin is also a sirt6 activator.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1043661821001717
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5644024/
And Icarrin might be useful for females since it inhibits (at least some cell lines of) breast cancer.
“Icariin-induced inhibition of SIRT6/NF-κB triggers redox mediated apoptosis and enhances anti-tumor immunity in triple-negative breast cancer”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32926492/
The thought that Grape seed extract contains a substance that kill senescent cells is in line with the findings that some substances in grape seed extracts has been shown to have cytotoxic effects on some prostate cancers.
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John Ramos Ok, back from vacation. Had bad luck trying to respond via cell phone. Prostate cells produce PSA that is measured in my blood. Since I no longer have a prostate my PSA should be zero but the test results indicate a tiny amount. This indicates the presence of cancerous cells somewhere in my body, not nearly enough to be seen using any kind of imaging. The fisetin helps keep the PSA number very low so it is killing or inhibiting the cancer from multiplying.
I take it for two days every two weeks. 500 3 times a day, every 8 hours.
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Joe F If Fisetin works for you but where did you get information that fisetin lowers PSA scores?
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John Ramos Excellent question. I heard about fisetin from another member of a prostate cancer group. I ran a course of fisetin and my PSA went down the next test. In the absence of any curative medicines (chemo, radiation, etc.) PSA normally goes up not down as cancer cells multiply and produce more serum PSA. I am not on any medications at they time. The presence of some PSA means I still have cancer cells in me somewhere as my PSA is not zero. Killing them or keeping them in a senescent/dormant state prevents the cancer from progressing and eating me for lunch.
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Joe F Prostate cancer is infamous for learning "workarounds" for the various cancer therapies, that is to say when one therapy becomes ineffective you move on to the next until all therapies have been used to the failure point. Great strides have been made in this area in the past 20 years. I have no idea if the fisetin will fail sometime in the future. It must be noted, person-to-person the cancers are very different. A treatment that works for one person might not for another. I also take high THC cannabis oil rectally. Home grown so I know what is in it. This avoids the "high" that is produced when one eats or smokes it in turn permitting a much higher blood level to be attained. It too works as evidenced in my PSA tests. My PSA is tested every 3 months.
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Joe F Did you also look at a increased PSA due to an enlarged prostate? What age are you? It's common in older men, I believe I have an enlarged one, very low flow, small amount, urgency etc. just not like it was...I know it's not cancer, I've been scanned, MRI, PET, CT...have or had cancer of the liver. I had 2 ablations and a chemoembolization. The AFP was very high, might be "0" in the last test a few days ago, getting the results in a couple of days.
Did anything light up(whitespots) in any of your scans?
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I was asymptomatic. Went for annual physical high PSA, biopsy Gleason 9. Radical prostatectomy, salvage radiation+7months androgen deprivation. The only way to know if it is cancerous is with a biopsy. Unpleasant but not bad. I had full body scans in between the biopsy and the radical prostatectomy. No light-ups, thank God. If your body is riddled with cancer they won't do an R.P. I was 67. Get a urologist to get you a PSA test. Every male 60 and up needs a PSA test annually. 1 in 7 men get prostate cancer. Early detection is extremely critical as the cancer loves to leak out of the prostate and spread all over. Don't fear it, learn about it.
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Joe F Thanks for the info and insight on your prostate and cancer. I am 75 yo., had a high PSA according to my GP. It was 3.50 which I found out later was not that high. My GP recommended a biopsy. I said to myself, I need a 2nd. opinion so I booked an appointment with a high level urologists. He examined me and ordered 2 additional blood test. % free PSA, and free PSA. Both of these were in normal range. Diagnosis, no biopsy need. He said if PSA is over 4.0 then you get additional blood test and then you would do a Biopsy if the results call for it. This is the way I track my prostate health with PSA and follow-up blood test if needed, and then a Biopsy if called for. I agree with you that early detection is CRUCIAL, but no need for Biopsy unless called for. Should mention, I have been on Rapamycin for 4 years so hopefully it is delaying the onset of any cancers.
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Van It looks like you are in a good way prostate cancer wise . Tracking PSA is the only way to determine if a biopsy is needed unless cancer is prevalent in your family. If familial cancer is a known problem a biopsy might be warranted.
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Joe F Wow, you have been through a lot. Gleason 9 is supposed to be a high grade cancer. A little confusing, if you've had it removed, why the high Gleason number? I will get my PSA tested and post the number. I'm pretty sure that I have the common enlarged prostate problem, slow steam, low volume more often, and urgency. I just started taking this, very high review rating, from may help others from Amazon or Costco. I also had a UTI, they gave me a number of antibiotics, found one that worked perfectly. Drinking Cranberry juice is also prescribed and being hydrated if beneficial.
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John Ramos The Gleason score is derived from the biopsy. 14 strategically placed core samples are taken with hollow needle wires. In this way the prostate is "mapped". The sample "gun" goes in through your butt hole. Not as bad as it sounds. The core samples are analyzed and the results are given in "Gleason" score numbers ranging 6 to 10. Above 7 indicates aggressive cancer, depending on who you are listening to.
After my prostatectomy the tissue was sliced and diced and the Gleason score was upgraded from 8 to 9. Darn.
At this point I feel great and very much enjoy life.
Cranberry compounds make it so bacteria can't stick so it gets flushed out with urine. The cells already attached need to be delt with. Take normal amounts of zinc, calcium and selenium as some studies indicate they might foster cancer.
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Joe F John Ramos Van
FWIW, I will share my experience with PSA and biopsies.
Having a family history of prostate cancer, I panicked when, 20 years ago my PSA rose well over 4. A urologist recommended, and I agreed, to a (painful) biopsy. The biopsy found nothing. A couple months later, when my PSA was even higher he recommended, and did another one. The 2nd biopsy also found nothing. With my PSA still rising, I did some frantic research and found a Dr. Fred Lee at Crittenton Hospital in Rochester, Michigan who had pioneered the use of color Doppler ultrasound for diagnosing prostate cancer. A very helpful rep from the Ultrasound equipment company assured me that Dr. Lee was the best, and so I made the trip. The ultrasound examination was non-invasive and painless. I was assured by Dr. Lee that I did not have any prostate cancer, which would have been identified by its blood supply. He also explained that PSA rises after a biopsy!
Some years later, another high reading sent me to urology and another recommendation for a biopsy. I instead made a 2nd trip to Dr. Lee who once again found no cancer.
I still have no signs of cancer.
My experience has been that the biopsies essentially destroyed the functionality of my prostate. If you can find an expert practitioner like Dr. Lee (he died in 2016), it might be an option to consider before undertaking biopsies.
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chuck stanley PSA can also rise (sometimes a lot) from infections, sex and or trauma like riding a bicycle. Glad to hear you are cancer free, so far. The biopsy is the only sure way to know.
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David H I just joined, & responding to a some-what older post. I'm 74, long history with vitamins, cognitives, etc; even had 2 young blood transfusions. Just completed 1st hit-and-run round of Fisetin + quercetin. I will have some misc blood work in a few weeks, possibly after 2nd round to monitor. QUESTIONS: Have you David, or others, noticed any detox-type reactions? Could be from skin rashes, to aches, PSA, LDL, CRP, etc., Thanks.
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Van My 2nd post, after joining today; just putting-in my 2 cents. Saw a radiologist for several years, whom only worked with breast & prostate cancer patients (both very similar.) He -- and other MDs, researchers -- agree: PSA is NEITHER cancer, nor prostate specific. He did not even ask his male patients for PSA numbers. Second point: why ever do a biopsy? IMO -- and also more with science backgrounds than I -- think biopsies spread cancer. And especially re prostate, a Gleason score merely tells you the severity, not re any method to treat, nor agent, etc.
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chuck stanley Again, just joined today. For several years I traveled from FL to see a radiologist in NYC whom also used an ultrasound (color Doppler) that took hundreds of photos of prostate area looking for blood vascularizations that feed tumors. That MD was also opposed to biopsy and thought PSA useless re prostate. For the record, it seems that the healthiest 20-something has maybe 20,000 cancer cells. At that age most of us have immune system to contain the cancers, but that ability changes decades later. Technically, nobody is ever cancer-free, and just one of the mis-directions of allopathic medicine.
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Michael_B I have not noticed anything after I have taken senolytics. At various times I have taken Fisetin alone, Dasatinib and Quercetin, and Dasatanib+Fisetin+Quercetin.
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Michael_B Thanks for post. I personally do not like consulting a Radiologist for breast or prostate cancer advise. He is member of team, but does not usually treat patients day in and day out or diagnosising patients without a referral from a Urologist, etc. My Urologist recommends a PSA, and PSA free, along with Free % if over score over 4. While in the past a bioposy would possibly be ordered, the new diagnostic tool is MRI/PET scans with a specific marker for prostate cancer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN3N1_s5bNM also Many are recommending a MRI after a high PSA, and then they can target a specific part of the prostate instead of whole prostate biopsy. Local will give a gleason score for that specific area. One could also do a PET scan to confirm before a biopsy, but not approved by FDA at this time. Then a marker can be used to scan the prostate to detect if the cancer has moved beyond the prostate for treatment. This is a game changer in treatment. In this video, the Dr. says, no reliable data to support not take a biopsy if necessary. MRI for diagnostic purposes is more accurate than a random biopsy, but a localized biopsy would be needed if MRI shows cancer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHHVl7e7SA This is a very exciting time for prostate diagnosis and treatment. Changing monthly after nothing for years. Many videos on Utube on new diagnosing techniques and treatments for prostate cancer.
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Van Thanks for response, but as in most things, opinions differ. "No reliable data to support not take a biopsy," is nonsense. Plenty of evidence that biopsies tend to spread cancers. In some cancers, one might weigh the risks, & consider the biopsy still provides useful info. In most cases, esp prostate, I disagree. Remember, Gleason does not at all assist in how to treat.
Anyone with prostate issues may want to look at Dr Sperling's site & approach. He is one of few MDs that offer FLA (focal laser ablation) re prostate. Most allopathic approaches IMO have high risks of various degrees, whether drugs, prostate removal, or HiFU, I think still only done outside U.S.
https://sperlingprostatecenter.com/
I spoke with Sperling maybe 5-7 years ago in NYC (he is now in FL,) and spoke with patients whom just had his treatment, & were already walking around the block. I've always thought if I ever needed it, his approach may be helpful.
However, while almost all men (& all women) will get prostate/breast cancer, if they live long enough, almost all will die with the cancer, NOT because of it.
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Michael_B I think "biopsies spread cancer" is an old wives tale, sometimes when doing a biopsy(I'm having one tomorrow) this also inject into a tumor they are biopsing which will probably happen tomorrow. The important blood test is for AFP, Alpha Fetal protein. Have you got that test and what is your number? I guess you've been diagnosed with cancer?
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John Ramos Thanks for reply, but obviously our view of PSA, biopsy, etc., differ; no point in further discussion. Hopefully the science will be better defined, but likely not for quite some time. Regards,
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Joe F Hi, Joe -- I sent a private note, but decided to post as well, in case others have feedback, or could use the info. Below is from e-mails, about March, 2018, so not sure if all the links still work.
THC dosage is way too low. The treatment is 60 grams in 90 days, not 2 grams, as you can read in our detailed cannabis oil dosage guide.
https://www.leafly.com/news/health/dont-laugh-rectal-suppositories-future-medicinal-cannabis
Immediately after the diagnosis, Novák began using 1-gram suppositories, each containing one-tenth of a gram of cannabis extract with more than 70 percent THC and around 5 percent CBD. “I did not feel any high, which was a big difference from oral consumption, when 0.1 gram would get me couch-locked for half a day,” he said.
“I just felt pretty relaxed and slept much better. And the best thing was, when I went to the hospital after three months, there was no need for chemotherapy or any other treatment. Much to my doctor’s surprise, my PSA was back to zero.”
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For those who think that since suppositories don't make you high it must not absorb well, here is the answer for you:
The Cannabis is quickly absorbed into the anal canal walls; if you deposit it just inside the first sphincter there is little to no high ... but if it is a sleep supp, it will put you to sleep in minutes. By not depositing it too high, it goes to the liver via the portal vein instead of making the first pass through the liver - (which metabolizes the THC and makes you high). If you push it in higher, you will get higher because it gets to the liver via a different vein and is metabolized on the first pass. If you are using capsules to form the suppositories, be sure and remove the suppository from the capsule as it will not melt.---------------------
https://www.backdoormedicine.org/resources
https://merryjane.com/culture/what-you-need-to-know-about-using-cannabis-suppositories
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https://www.leafly.com/news/health/dont-laugh-rectal-suppositories-future-medicinal-cannabis
. 3000 years ago the Egyptians used cannabis suppositories to mitigate the discomfort of hemorrhoids.
Jordan Tishler MD • 2 years ago
So, interestingly, I was a big proponent of rectal suppositories for my patients with cancer. However, recent and some older studies show that absorption of Cannabinoids via the rectal mucosa is nearly nil. My patients, on the other hand, are doing well with the suppositories. So, I'm not sure what to make of this. Guess we need more studies.
*---------------------
https://extractcrafter.com/2017/05/17/the-cannabis-oil-suppository-debate-personal-testing-results/
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To be honest I don't take it with a meal, I usually take it around 2 or 3 hours after just as a matter of habbit. I eat normally as well, I don't go out of my way much more than I do when taking Tylenol or something of the like. I do the 3 day treatment once a month usually.
I have tried various intervals. What I found was that 2 weeks seems to be too fast, and at 3 weeks you can repeat. But I choose to do it every month and at some points I do take a 3 month break sort as a reset just for safety's sake. But in short every month is more than sufficient.
The thing is Fisetin obviously has some other effects that are not purely senylotic. The very first time I took Fisetin like this I remember being very fatigued the next day in a good way. Also I had white stool, which I have never had since. Another effect is the firming up of muscles. And the first place I noticed strength and activity was in the thighs.
The only side effects might be some headaches but I chalk that up to dehydration. Drinking a lot of water with it makes it not a thing.
As far as when you should feel effects. It's fairly fast, but it was after the 2nd day of the very first 3 day supplement that I noticed how much strength my legs had and how my perceptions, mood, and presence were affected. By day three I was walking around the city marveling at how different the world looked.
I honestly would be interested to hear if this has the same effect for others. But as a rule I repeat the entire treatment every month. Which is the 3 day routine.
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David C You don't mention quercetin which is often recommended for senolytic treatments - do you take it or just the fisetin? and what is your dosage per Kg of weight?
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Paul Beauchemin Well, I bought some Quercetin but as I understand it its less effective than Fisetin and I don't have access to Dastanib. Fisetin alone was proven to be a fairly potent senylotic and at my age I was looking for something easy that will remove a good part of senescent cells..theoretically.
My feeling is that within 5 years time we will have some new methods from people like Osin and other companies. So if I can do a little something now until the more tailored interventions come out I am fine with it.
I weight 110kg so 3g for that weight. To be honest I sort of felt like I'd prefer go with a smaller dosage over multiple days rather than say a super dose of 5g. And I did get an effect with the dosage I am using. I do not have the resources to test pre and post SASP or senescent cell counts. So I have to rely on the lab results with rats like the rest of us for the time being.
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I forgot to add, when I first started Fisetin I was aiming at hitting the Senylotic threshold. So I took it like this:
3 days treatment - wait two weeks - 3 day treatment - wait 3 weeks - 3 day treatment - wait 4 weeks - 3 day treatment -wait 2 months
And I had every intention of maybe doing this every 3 months just to keep the senescent cell clearing occurring regularly. However I found the other benefits of Fisetin to be too enticing to wait 3 months between treatments. So now I am at once a month.
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David C Do you take a smaller amount of fisetin every day, also?
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David C I've only done one course of a 3 day fisiten treatment. However, what stood out for me was short term relief of mild to moderate chronic pain over that three day period. Perhaps you don't have any pain, but if so, did you notice this effect?
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Dorian Gray it would not surprise me as it’s a anti inflammatory in some ways.
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No because as I understood there were two ways to take it: Moderate amounts every day or periodic high doses. As far as the other benefits of Fisetin I can feel the effects for 3 weeks acutely, and during the 4th week there is waning down of the effects. I expect this is hormonal so I do like to let my system normalize before taking another treatment.
As I have said my baseline health has risen significantly after starting this regimen, so it clearly has had a lasting effect as well. But I definitely get a jolt every time I do the treatment. I am more or less careful because I'd rather not cause premature male pattern baldness or something.
As far as I can tell at around week 4 my body is normalizing fully from the previous dosage. So if I took even more Fistein daily it would alter that balance.
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You mention buying "Swanson’s with nouvestein" (it's actually Fisetin with Novusetin sold by Doctor's Best). I was wondering just what Novusetin is, so I did an Internet search. Turns out, Novusetin is just a commercial name for fisetin and nothing special.
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JGC
Just FYI, Dr’s Best brand and the one from Swanson are different. Swansons is better, and lower cost.
In my tests to check for how products dissolve in various mediums, comparing Dr Best, Swanson brand and pure powder), I found Dr Best to contain a Lot of non dissolving fillers. -
BobM
OK, but when I search for "fisetin" on the Swanson site, I get two items. The Swanson brand says "Novusetin" in small letters under the title, and the Doctor's Best brand says "Fisetin with Novusetin", implying that Novusetin is some additional ingredient. That's incorrect. It's just a brand name for Fisetin. That's my point.
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JGC
FYI, here is what I am using now and referred to:
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Well swansons was just the first I went with. I can vouch for this stuff. I absolutely love fisetin. Best thing I ever found.
3g day 1
3g day 2
3g day 3
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David C 3 grams is a whole bottle of the Swanson's fisetin. Quite a bit more than the 1.5 grams daily dose that the Mayo clinic recomended for 70kg body weight. What do you weigh? And are you still taking this regime once a month?
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Dean W. I do it by bodyweight, 20mg/kilo of bodyweight and 1-2 month break, don't know what's right.
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John Ramos Yes, that is the milligram number I use too. But John C. said he is taking 3 grams a day for 3 days (see his post from 2 years ago). 3 grams is twice as much as I take so I was wondering if he weighes twice as much as me. (That would mean 140 kg or 308 lb.) Or maybe he weighs much less and just decided to greatly increase the dose on his own.
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Dean W. 20mg/kilo of body weight is a real number, I think his was a guesstimate. That amount done 2 days is a pretty easy amount to find. 1-2 months break...you don't want to completely keep them cleaned out, some are beneficial.
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John Ramos From what I have read no senolytic will "clear out" all senecent cells. It is far from 100% efficent, more like 25 to 50%. Also different cells in the body are not affected by the same senolytic. We might need different ones for different cells.
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Dean W. For now without knowing more about which cells it works on, I'm sticking with Fisetin.
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Dean W. Entire field is new, & nobody has definitive answers. However, IMO entire allopathic field prescribes mostly based on weight, while not only age, but particular health conditions are more impt. Re age, for instance, a 30 year old, could take more time for experimentation, while a 70 y.o. may need to have results sooner.
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Dean W. My body weight is 104 kg. I take 30 capsules = 3g a day for three days straight. Fisetin is fairly safe, you'd really have to take an enormous amount to do any damage. Mice models were taking way way up there. No ill effects. I started taking 1.8g and then moved to 3g. Zero issues.
So take whatever you feel comfortable with. And move up if you like. 1.5g is not bad for 70g weight. It's actually pretty consistent with how I calculated back when I first started.
I have found repeating every 3-4 weeks is the ideal time.
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David C Thanks for confirming your post from 2 years ago. Are you still seeing the great effects that you mentioned back then or has that tapered off?
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David C Thanks for sharing, David. May I ask your (or other readers') opinion of Life Extension Foundation's recommendation of the equivalent (of their bioavailable fisetin, along with their bioavailable quercetin and theaflavins) of 1.4g of fisetin once weekly? Of course, they don't consider one's body weight! I agree with the reasoning that we want to overload the body's ability to metabolize it, so I've worked up over the past year or so to taking a single dose of between 3.5 and 4 grams of fisetin about once every two or three weeks. I weigh 84 kg. No noticeable effects at all, but perhaps we shouldn't expect to notice a somewhat diminished rate of aging!
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Brian Valerie Well, for myself personally I just keep taking what I know works. The bioavailable versions are probably just as good but then you have to trust their calculations on whether or not it works and at what dosage. I like plain fisetin because the mouse studies used this and we can translate dosage to humans fairly easily.
Quercetin is very closely related to fisetin in its chemical structure. So I "hypothesize" that its mechanism of action is similar and it probably acts on the same pathway as fisetin. And we know that fisetin alone was much more potent that quercetin (studies have shown). So I never saw the need to replace fisetin with quercetin even in a mix and match scenario because it's almost like mixing in a weaker version of fisetin with full strength fisetin. Now this could be completely wrong and I even bought quercetin at one point. The real problem is it gets expensive when you add in other items and for the reason mentioned above I just felt quercetin was doing more of the same, just poorly.
If memory serves me right in the mouse studies they did essentially the equivalent of 3g (for your weight 84kg) a day for two days then waited like two to three weeks and repeated. Now no one knows the real effects or optimal dosage and frequency but I also still notice increased energy, clarity, muscular firmness, and less inflammation around the neck and face. Almost as if my face is at rest from something always agitating it and attacking it at a low level. These positive effects last for 3 weeks on average and then I think about doing another round of fisetin.
For some of the others asking if I still get positive effects, yes I do. But my baseline has raised significantly so its a less glaring improvement than from the first time I used it. Indicating some level of permanent effects took place. I believe fisetin is both a senolytic and senomorphic compound. That is to say it both causes apoptosis in senescent cells and suppresses SASP (the harmful signaling from senescent cells).
This means fisetin both kills a portion of senescent cells and can disrupt the ones it does not kill outright so that for a time they don't emit SASP. This would explain my experience with fisetin if so. Keep in mind I am no scientist, but even scientists don't have all the answers as we have yet to really have a human study with fisetin although I hear one is ongoing now.
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Dean W. I still get the same effects. The benefits last for two weeks steady and then wane during week three. By the end of week three I plan for my next dosage. I can occur immediately at three weeks or even a week later.
I have tried to explain how it works/worked for me. The initial dosing way back when was very effective. My baseline was low. Low energy, fatigue, malaise, and so on. After I took my first round of fisetin my entire energy spectrum changed. I felt I could see colors more vividly, hear sounds more acutely, and had increased strength and muscle firmness all over. I could also stay up till the wee hours of night without getting tired.
All of these things did not go away. Alot of it remains permanent. So now when I take fisetin its more of a maintenance effect, however I still get heightened benefits as listed above but the difference is not as stark as my baseline has been raised overall.
This is my experience with it. I also gave some to a friend who is 37 years old. It was funny because the guy was running around doing house projects for days. A person that usually lays on the couch after work defeated and plays on his phone or watches TV. He had so much energy and drive he could not contain it. He also noticed muscle firmness.
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David C Thank you for that very interesting update. I will increase my fisetin dose next time I do my semi-annual course. If I see results I will most likely take it every 2 months.
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David C Also, thanks, David for all the detailed info. Few points: 1. Mayo studies -- despite testing fisetin -- is not known for using natural substances, vs pharmaceuticals -- and if they are adding quercetin to the fisetin, probably for good reasons.
2. Rarely mentioned on this site at all, but probably as impt as any supplement, is what is your diet? I assume based on your exercise / leg info, more protein than carbs. Likely the closer to an organic paleo or organic keto, the better for senolytics to function.
3. Even try monitoring reactions, etc., via muscle testing, a.k.a. applied kinesiology? Also, I have not seen mentioned on site. I will probably start a separate topic.
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@David C Thanks for all the feedback on your fisetin experiment - much appreciated.
Just one point, do you take the 3g fisetin in one mega dose or are you taking several smaller doses throughout the day?
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Kaptain Asia 20mg/kilo of bodyweight - What I take now is that dose for 2 days with a 1-2 month break.
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One dose. I just take 30 pills one after another drinking water. My reasoning is you want to overload the body’s ability to metabolize it and get it circulating in the blood to affect as many senescent cells as possible.
The half life on this stuff even with large doses is like 3.1 hours, so it should be out of your system effectively in around 9 hours.
If you do take it this way, the first place I notice an effect is the outer thighs. It gets tight and might twitch a little. Leg strength is something I noticed first as well. Drink plenty of water, I used to get some head aches that were not painful just uncomfortable, but that does not happen anymore.
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David C Thanks for the reply.
I'm definitely going to give this a shot.......but I will probably start with a 2g dose to be on the safe side and then work my way up.
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David C
Trying this my first time, started yesterday at 3g, and 2.2g today and tomorrow (all I have left). I experienced some great energy, and clear mind all day yesterday. Last night I did get super tired and have been lethargic today. Is this normal? Thanks!
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Chris yes it was like this for me my first time especially. So on day 3 or so things should be better. I slept a lot and by about day 3 is when I realized it had really kicked in.
If you were knocking out 25 to 50% of senescent cells in tissues it might mean the body would like to rebuild and restructure. Not only to replace those cells but now the environment for cell replication and restoration would me much more free of SASP which hinders maintenance. In other words your body has a lot to do, and suddenly.
Now when I take it I don’t get that same fatigue as when I first did it. Pay attention to leg strength. It’s the first sign I had that this was doing something beneficial. You should get boosts of energy, increased mood, and muscle firming if it’s like me. Give it a day or so then just go for a walk. I had increased perception and presence in the world. Good energy and impressive leg strength. Like hills that would make me groan were fun to just bounce over.
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David C Thanks! Pretty excited about this and your schedule. I do plan 3g a day for 3 days in the future, every 4 weeks. Have you tweaked anything (like add other compounds, take in olive, oil, etc)?
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Chris Well I recently added NMN to the whole regime. I am careful not to add too much because then it becomes to costly and I am afraid there will be interactions that nobody has forseen.
I hope it works well for you. At the very least it's a harmless regimen. It has proven results in the lab and I really love the stuff.
If you do notice increased muscle density, energy, mood, and all the other stuff it usually lasts like 2 weeks solid and then by week 3 it normalizes a bit and then I let it go another week and repeat. You could possibly do it more often than 4 weeks. At 3 weeks I think its fine. I tried it every 2 weeks and had some scalp itching so I went back to every 4 weeks.
The thing is, if this does increase testosterone levels it does it via your own body's functions. Because the bioavailability is fairly fast. It should be out of your system in like 12 hours for each does. So it's not like a steroid that adds literally the hormone itself it only encourages production of testosterone via your own body's functions. That is if indeed it does increase hormone levels. But it should be safe even if it does because you should theoretically be getting testosterone meant for your specific body.
The main use of this stuff is to clear senescent cells. Just like you I was tired at first, I just slept alot and it goes away. I think your first run through will clear out the vast majority of senescent cells that fisetin is able to eliminate which would cause some fatigue as the body has some restructuring to do afterwards.
But later on when you are doing repeat doses monthly it's just a maintenance dose and there is just not as many senescent cells to clear, meaning really no fatigue.
Glad to see you are trying it out. Human studies do I think next month on this. So we will have a little more data to go off soon.
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David C Thanks! Been taking NMN for awhile :-) So I dosed my last dose this morning, I'll report back here on the next few days. I am not nearly as tired today as I was yesterday. Also, I would assume to not exercise/lift on the week of doing this, correct? Not like I really can anyways with the quarantine. I'll probably try this again in 3-4 weeks but with olive oil or MCT oil just to see. Cheers!
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Chris I lift while taking. I used to not do so on the days I dosed. But i figured I’d try it and see. I noticed I might get more muscle soreness but other than that seems fine. I mean I guess the concern is that fisetin might eliminate those transient senescent cells that are created to attract immune cells for wound healing. Which I guess is the mechanism by which the muscle rebuilds after a workout.
Seemed to me not to be harmful at all to workout though. I feel like I get a good rip to be honest with it.
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Just ordered some. We'll see what it does to someone's who's pushing 70. I understand that the right dose is 20 milligrams per kilogram. At 190lbs that's 17 one hundred milligram tablets.
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Well yea. I guess start with that much and see. I started with 18 and now I do 30. There are no side effects and the dosage is not noticeably different at all. Fisetin seems to be quite safe.
let us know if it has an effect. I’d like some backup on this. I swear by this stuff but it’s always nice to see other people say the same.
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David C
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David C
I'm not going gentle into that good night. I'm fasting now from dinner to lunch and sometimes a little longer. I've been trying to figure out when the effect of autophagy take place as I understand the first things the body chows down on in senescent cells. That almost too good to believe. But I can't find any consensus on how long the fast needs to be or if shorter intermittent fasting can work.
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Robert Olin For fasting I hear it's at least two days, this was from David Sinclair.
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But does that mean that autophagy begins on the 48th hour and does it stop the minute your eat?
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I honestly don’t think anyone knows. From what I can tell it likely starts earlier and to get some benefit 48 hours fasting is what is required. There really has not been in depth human testing so far. Everything is theoretical and translated from mouse models.
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Hi David,
Thanks for your posts! I actually found them in a google search and your post led me to give Fisetin a try. I have completed my first 3 day round of Fisetin at 3 grams per day.
A question if I may:
You mentioned that you saw improvements in some areas at around the 6 month mark. Could you share what those were? I am eager to have a roadmap to measure progress again if possible.
About me: 49 yr old male. On TRT since 2018.
Some notes about my experience so far (2 weeks after first dose):
1. I feel like I had a few hairs go from gray to not gray. Not sure if it’s related or I just noticed it.
2. I noticed that I got a bit ...drier...I think this might be an anti-inflammatory effect. Maybe I had a bit of bloat. That seemed to go away quickly and improved a bit more over the last week.
3. Improved energy. My workouts are more intense and more enjoyable. I have more energy left over after I complete the workout than I did before the first round of Fisetin.
4. Muscles seem generally harder. I believe David noted this above but I am also experiencing this.
5. A weird twitch in my right eye. That seemed to last throughout the first week and is going away now. Not sure if it’s related or not.
Thanks again!
Best,
Another David C.
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DavidCo11 be sure to hydrate a lot. I do usually when taking this. Which means I just drink the amount of water they say we are supposed to anyways
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I just got some 500 mg fisetin so I take 1.5 grams a day with querctin. Any idea how many days on and off.
Thanks,
Bob
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Well with 1.5 grams I would do 3 days 1.5 plus querctin then pause 2 or 3 weeks and repeat. I honestly don’t think it will be harmful if you wait at least 2 weeks.
personally I found that when taking 2.2 or 3 grams three days in a row that at about week 3 is when I feel like I am normalizing. I then let it go another weeek to allow the body to rest just in case this is affecting hormone levels.
Since there really is no data and that’s a lesser dose. I would try taking it 3 times daily then wait three weeks and repeat. At some point it’s not a bad idea to take two months off then start again. This gives your body time to naturally reset.
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So you feel that after taking fisetin and querctin for three days, your body need some time to flush out these senescent cells? Do you recall the time protocol used by the Mayo Clinic for the rats?
Thanks,
Bob
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Well here is my feeling on it. I believe fisetin raises testosterone levels somehow. This is more the reason I am careful than anything else. With the rat experiments they did it two different ways.
one was mega dose and the other was daily. I chose to mega dose just in case the body adapts and builds a tolerance somehow or becomes dependent. I’d have to go back and look at the study again, but it seems with the dose you are taking it’s somewhere between the mega dose and the daily dose.
thats why i was think every two weeks maybe. Since no one knows how this affects humans just yet you have to play it by ear. I’d take the dose 3 times over 3 days then repeat in two weeks. See how you feel with it.
id take fisetin every 3 weeks optimally I just don’t want my hair to fallout from too much Testosterone. And that’s a just in case. I think the first human studies with humans are wrapping up this month so we might have more data here soon.
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i read somewhere that one of the reasons you don't clear senescent cells is that your immune system that does the work, gets clogged up with them as we age. Let's hope clearing them out helps restore our ability to do apoptosis. Also - we need a strong immune system with this new virus. I'm guessing the people who only have a mild reaction to it have strong immune systems. I believe it was Dylan Thomas that said not to go gentle into that good night.
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I think it’s a combination of a failing immune system and the prevalence of more senescence. Kind of like a feedback loop where both aggravate each other and a downward spiral starts with both speeding up the demise of the other faster and faster.
Not sure apoptosis will be encouraged or not if there are less SASP and other senescent cells. Not even sure there is good data on why apoptosis does not occur in some senescent cells. Assumedly it’s DNA damage or out of the ordinary circumstances otherwise that cause this to fail.
DNA damage makes sense since it seems the SASP signaling is primarily to attract immune cells to destroy SASP emitting cells and likely a good portion of other cells in the immediate SASP environment. And that would make sense if a somatic cell with a cancerous or apoptosis resistant profile had proliferated it would be best to kill them all off to reduce the chances of a much larger problem down the road.
We really need a way to improve the immune system and the quality and number of stem cells for anything terribly meaningful to occur. What’s interesting about our stem cells is that they are quiescent and protect their DNA, only activating and replicating when certain signal demands are met. I am sure a SASP rich environment causes stem cells to remain quiescent much longer as there seems to be a rather delicate signaling criteria for replication.
In the end all of this signaling us just every cell emitting it’s own proteins routinely and these flip switches in surrounding cells as certain thresholds are met. SASP seems to muddy everything up and cause cells to go senescent as a precaution since their proximity to a SASP emitting cell implicates them as possibly being compromised as well due to recent somatic replication.
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Just did my second 3 day regimen of fisetin. First time did 1.5 gms, this time 2.5.
felt no effect from either. Hoping it is clearing senescent cells
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That is so crazy. I definitely get effects. Took first day of three day regimen yesterday and feel the same effects as usual. In any case you really aren’t supposed to feel anything if it’s clearing senescent cells.
it’s very odd you don’t feel any if the effects I do. To me it’s unmistakable.
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David C do you guys have any blood tests before and then during the treatment?
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Joe smith No, someone really should. I am more interested (in regards to fisetin) in hormone levels. I am not sure how well bloodtests would show senescence. I guess looking for SASP factors and some of the other signalling that sencecent cells give off.
I feel like they'd almost have to cut people open and take biopsies to really understand to what effect it's working or not. Not to mention the time required to have a noticeable effect is likely years.
You almost have to take it at blind faith and be consistent with it for a number of years. That's why I am doing fisetin. It's cheap, accessible, safe, and has some laboratory results behind it.
I don't doubt that some other compounds might be more effective. But usually it's me looking at the longterm. Can I afford to take this routinely for 5 years or so? If I can does the cost outweigh the possibility of it not working? Am I able to buy this without a doctor prescribing it? And so on...
I think we will get more information on sencesent cell removal in general very soon as there is a lot of human trials underway, some even using fisetin.
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David C I think he meant before and after blood tests for hormone levels. How often do you check your test levels?
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