Ozone8 

FYI, I am getting quoted on 1mg tabs from India at $1.7 for an order qty of 500

pm me for details 

BobM My typical cost for sirolimus 1 mg tablets is $1 to $1.15. I've tried many suppliers that I find on Indiamart.com and all have delivered the product within 3 weeks or 4 weeks. You can use the https://www.scamadviser.com website to check the reseller reputation before you buy.

Charles Grashow my pup and I just finished ours from ADC , and I’m about to order more .  A bit more expensive than from IAS , but as i order other stuff from ADC, figured just would get the sirolimus from them too .

angie4life 

Charles Grashow angie4life 

What is ADC?

Charles Grashow Charles Grashow All Day Chemist . Sorry for the confusion . Their product is “Siromus” and the tablets are 1 mg . each.  Nice company to work with , as I’ve ordered for years from them .

angie4life 

Have you ordered any other product from them?

Are you using Dasatinib?

Charles Grashow I do have a bottle of what I hope is dasinitib (Dasapro), that I ordered a few months back from IAS. Haven’t opened it yet , but sure do hope it’s got active product in it , after Steve’s experience with Profound’s RapaPro.

Charles Grashow All Day Chemist

Steve Roedde are you saying that you did get legitimate Rapamycin?

Karl Yes! I take 1 mg per day. My serum levels were stable at 2ng/ml when on “Rapamune”. When I switched to the same dose using the 5 mg tabs from the AAS, my levels were zero. When the dose was doubled... still zero. So that product contained no Rapamycin. Using 1 mg of my self-compounded drug it is again 2ng/ml.

I must conclude that the 2.26g purchased from China is indeed 99% Rapamycin as advertised. The cost worked out to ~$0.11 per 1 mg dose.

Steve Roedde 

Great post Steve. Thanks for sharing.

Now we see also the profit levels being made by some of these pharmacies....

May I ask what exact blood test are you running? Can you get it through Life Extension?

BobM 

There is a listed company in Bangladesh called Beacon Pharmaceuticals Limited. They claim to distribute dasatinib to all corners of the world, (through direct selling). it is far from as cheap as buying directly from china but much better pricing then when dasatinib is bought through a western medical system. 

https://www.beaconpharma.com.bd/

https://www.beaconpharma.com.bd/product/dasanix-dasatinib/

Steve Roedde 

What is the contact information for your Chinese source of rapamycin?

JGC I think this is the link. You can request a 1-2 gram "sample". I can't vouch for anything you receive, but what they sent me was pure rapamycin. They take a credit card. Alibaba is like the wholesale version of Aliexpress... which is in turn like Amazon... but bigger. There are dozens of suppliers... Like Amazon, they live and die by reviews, and the platform punishes companies who fall below acceptable standards. https://hhdpharm.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2756.trade-order-list.0.0.470c76e9LegZJo&tracelog=from_orderlist_company

Steve Roedde that is a great find assuming there are no significant contaminants. Several other interesting products they sell. I’m always a bit leery of Chinese and Indian products.

Steve Roedde 

OK, that link takes me to Wuhan Hengheda Pharma Co. Limited.  They do seem to sell Rapamycin powder for $1-5 per gram in minimum lots of 100 grams.  I used their messaging system to inquire about obtaining a sample of a few grams, but I have not yet received a reply.  Is that the correct outfit and is that what you did?

JGC Yes, but read Brin's comment on the "Sources for inexpensive prescription Rapamycin" thread. Testing any product in some fashion is really important. He identified a company that will test.... earlier in the thread I think. Around $200 I think.

Steve Roedde 

Good stuff Steve! much appreciated. Just bought 3 Rapa-Pro Rapamycin 12 x 3.25mg @ $79.99 ea.with $50 wire fee from AAS. Just sent the payment yesterday! Sounds like I bought a can of Philadelphia air. Wasn't aware of "placebo debacle" 

Can't find Brin's comment on the "Sources for inexpensive prescription Rapamycin" thread. Where exactly on the site is it? Followed your Alibaba link. 

Also just purchased yesterday 30 x 100mg Dasatinib from Beacon Medicare Ltd. in Bangladesh AKA Beacon Pharmaceuticals for $220 plus $65 Shipping and $50 wire fee. Not a bad price for dasatinib if it's legit, not sure if it matters but it is from China, Alibaba has much better prices though.

https://www.beaconpharma.com.bd/product/dasanix-tablet/

Gary Gilley I suspect that the AAS has cleaned things up... and now say their 5 mg pills contains 3.5 mg. I can’t recall where the post was. He listed a company that will test medications for purity... and said he’d post his results when they came in. I think it’s worth the $200 it costs... particularly if, like me, you buy >2000 doses. 

Steve Roedde - thanks again Steve, definitely worth the cost whatever it is. I live in the Baltimore, DC area so I shouldn't have much trouble finding someone local for that. Any ideas on types of dry powder blenders for mixing pharmaceuticals, found a few in the 5 - 6 hundred dollar range. Still like your DYI approach. or did you sub that part out? 

Gary Gilley , nope, a home mixer. I did the first few by hand (my 2g rapamycin with 8-10g pf lactose... in a steel bowl, with low humidity. I took a ton of time with this and the next dilution, because the active drug really needs to be evenly dispersed. Once I had added all of my lactose and mixed it by hand... I just added it to the mixer, covered it in a big bag to keep any dust confined and turned it on as low as it would go. The bulk of it is in the freezer, with a month's worth is on the counter in a glass jar.

Steve Roedde 

Steve Roedde I don't know if it would be feasible to do a group buy on some of these meds but it would make testing more economical and I think puts some of the companies that provide them in a secondary market on guard knowing that multiple users are involved and the quantities are larger.  I know on some of the other forums for various health concerns purchases made, particularly from China, have very often been proven to be compromised in quality, or quantity of ingredient.  Suspicion and diligence is warranted.  Perhaps others will chime in on this.  Please do post the name of a reliable company that would offer such testing or feel free to PM me i f more appropriate.

Dorian Gray I really wish I could find that post by "Brin.".. because he mentioned the site... a compounding pharmacy that tests all of its medications if I recall correctly. Maybe someone else can find it. Apart form the recent bestselling book (which addressed a  generic manufacturers in India), I'm not aware of much in the way of actual evidence of contamination...although I'm sure it exists. It is for that reason that I posted my lab results after my AAS purchase... one does not need opinions or hearsay... but rather information and evidence. As I said, there are a ton of manufacturers on Alibaba... and specifically mentioning that testing would occur...and actually following through... is likely better than assumptions... of any product from any supplier (beyond the relatively well regulated NA manufacturers.

I remain puzzled by the "I can tell its real...because I feel this... or that", given the placebo effect and human nature.

Steve Roedde I don't think it would work legally to do group buys of what are prescription drugs in the US.  It's legal (or at least tolerated) to import a three month supply for personal use, but more than that would probably be blocked by customs.  A group could sponsor testing of a particular source.

Steve Roedde Well stated!

RobH I had forgotten about the three month supply bit. However, my 2000plus doses of Rapamycin was routed through the US, and opened by the DEA. The AAS placebo Rapamycin was labeled “nutritional supplement” and was shipped to the USA. My real Rapamycin from China was labeled as “commercial sample”... cosmetic product. Even 10,000 doses of Rapamycin only weighs 10grams and is a very tiny amount physically.  I suspect that the actual risk is low... but of course do not know.

Steve Roedde Customs enforcement seems quite variable.  My recent order of 120 grams of NMN was held up by Customs until I submitted a one page statement about what NMN is and what I intended to do with it.  The declaration of contents apparently said that it was for scientific research.  I stated that it was a supplement for personal consumption.  I am enrolled in the VIA study, which I stated that they would be tracking the results of my NMN consumption.  The package was released, but I hope it doesn't take the same effort next time.  I doubt that they would have allowed a shipment for more than one person.  Now if Customs would just assay the sample and tell me the results...

RobH Brilliant final line! Thanks for the update...

Steve Roedde https://www.valisure.com/

Steve Roedde Interesting - clicked to find Wuhan Pharmacy - not sure I want to order from them at the moment!

Paul Beauchemin Paul Beauchemin . If you can find an internist who is up in years, say over 75, there might be a chance he knows about rapamycin, especially if he has an interest in aging medicine, and is already experimenting on himself. Just an idea. It seems it would be far safer to buy with prescription in the U.S.

Steve Roedde I'm following in your footsteps and have received my Rapa powder.  One question:  What is your procedure for taking the rapa powder?

Van 

Van I used the jewellers scale and using measuring spoons found the amount that corresponded with the correct weight (333mg/mg in your case if I recall). It might be ~ 1/2 tsp if you are taking 5 mg weekly. Then, just measure and eat it dry. It’s marginally sweet because of the lactose. Of course the dose you actually take might vary... but it’s so bloody safe, if it’s 5 mg one week and 7 the next, it doesn’t matter. For what it’s worth, I have changed my dosing somewhat. I take 10-12 mg on Saturday, then 1 mg every other day. I have never had Friday morning trough levels over 2.6(remember, I want some MTOR2 inhibition). Zero impact on hemoglobin, glucose, liver function, cholesterol. I am somewhat lymphophenic, but was before starting (not uncommon in Crohn’s disease and moreso after thymectomy). For what it’s worth... I have been able to taper my prednisone even more... and am down to a near-physiologic 7.5 mg/day from a high of 50 mg per day. I can still lift weights, run my farm, ride my bike. My neurologist, who was definitely not on-board my use of Rapamycin, was surprised and pleased at my level of function.  Case studies/case series are useless data-points for others, but I seem OK so far. I am still awaiting proper RCT data... one day... Hope this helps. Steve

Steve Roedde Thanks for the guidance.  I am very familiar with Rapa protocols, but can always learn more.  Was rather intrigued by the cycling protocol set forth in this blog.  Yeah, just put the powder in your mouth and wash it down.  I also had bought a jeweler's scale down to .001, but everything I read says it is not very accurate below 10 mg.  Can buy a Lab balance for about $150, which will be very accurate down to .0001., but I believe the jewelers scale  is accurate enough for our purposes.  I'm beginning to mix the rapa with the lactose today with a spoon and ceramic bowl.  In the video on line they used a mortar and pestle, but I think I can do this the correct way with a spoon, lots of effort and time.  You only have to do it once every 2 years or so.  About freezing it.  Don't know if this would last for 2 years in the freezer?  Probably should research it.  I know that the tablets are good for a long time, but they probably have a stabilizer in them.  

As far a dosing.  Have been taking 6 mg weekly for 3 years, and have recently gone to 10 mg weekly.  The key for me is mouth sores.  They always show up if I over do it.  Here is recent paper by Dr. Mikhail V. Blagosklonny, who is really the reigning expert on aging.   He has a chart that shows the optimum dose for Rapa to get max benefit without disturbing TOR 2.  In my case I keep increasing dose until I get some mouth sores, then I wait a week and take 1 mg less.  No problems with 10 mg so far.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6814615/

Van agreed, for our purposes the jewellers scale is fine. Of note, I have never developed “mouth sores”, regardless of dose/Rapamycin levels. I suspect that my Sunday/Monday trough levels are really high... but it probably doesn’t matter. I agree, Mikhail is the guy who knows the most. 

Steve Roedde I have taken up to 25 mg at once without a problem.  It is the 2nd. dose that is the problem.  I waited 4 weeks after than large dose. (Remember in the Mannick study, elderly took 20 mg week for 4 weeks)  It might be worthwhile to re-read Mannick, where they predict in advance the amount of Tor inhibition for each dose, and they were correct.

Van reread. Agree.

Steve Roedde A little update on my Rapamycin powder compound.  Have been on lock down for past month so no way to get to lab, but had an encouraging sign.  I got a mouth sore on my inner cheek.  This is the exact location that I have got sores in the past when I went too far with Rapa.  This happened after my first dose of appx. 10 mg.  I had run out of Rapa tablets and had not taken any Rapa for 3 months.  I had taken 10 mg in past without a problem, but probably lost some of my tolerance for higher dose Rapa.  Very in-tuned to my body because I have been taking Rapa for over 3 years. 

 Rapa tablets very difficult to get here in Spain.  Shipping a few grams of Rapa powder from China is very easy and inexpensive.

Because of the sore, I only took 6 mg Rapa today which is my second weekly dose.  I will continue to increase my dose by 1 mg.  going forward until I get another sore and then back off 1 mg after skipping one week.  This is the method that Dr. Mikhail V. Blagosklonny recommends.  In order to get the ideal dose, for maximum effect,  you increase your dosage until you get side effects then back off.( TOR 2)  My individual and particular side effect just happens to be mouth sores, and I never have mouth sores except when over doing Rapa.

An educated guess is that my ideal weekly dosage is around 10-12 mg weekly, but only time will tell.  I'm almost 74 yo, and know that the older you are the stronger the TOR signal and the more inhibition you need in order to get the full anti aging benefits.  So that means:  As you age your target dose with change.  Also, studying the cycling protocol discussed on this blog.

Steve Roedde 

I note that the lab tests available at low cost through LifeExtension do not include a test for the serum Sirolimus (Rapamycin) level.  Too bad.

Rob8311 

Thanks for the info.  That makes twice that Lucidas Dasatinib purchased from Bon Hoa has been tested and found to be the real thing.  In the test in which I participated, the concentration was not checked, so it's good to know that a nominal "50 mg" tablet contains 46 mg, which is close enough. 

Rob8311 Did S&N provide a spectrograph of additional substances or just give you a summary of the requested chemical?  For that money, I would think, there would be a comparative analysis even though other substances were not identified.  Been a long time since I took physical chemistry but I would think techniques would be vastly better by now.  I was looking for labs that might do some testing also and S&N was one that popped up.  Here was my list:

https://www.metlabs.com/industries/consumer-products/

https://atslab.com/consumer-product-testing/product-testing-labs/

https://www.emsl.com/Services.aspx?action=list&ServiceCategoryID=13

https://www.eurofins.com/consumer-product-testing/

https://www.avomeen.com/scientific-applications/product-performance-testing/

https://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/labsearch/

https://www.amalabs.com/company/

https://www.snlabs.com/index.html

I have not had time to contact any of them, just too busy during the day at work.  If anyone has the time please feel free to engage.  I'm afraid I'm a purist when it comes to ingesting chemicals and the thought of unknown "excipients" puts me off many of the foreign sources.  Not that other sources for "pure" substances can't be found, I just don't know of any.  Certainly if Keith Richards could purchase pharmaceutical grade heroin, we shouldn't shrink from the task of finding something unadulterated that will benefit our health. 

Dorian Gray This is my take for what it is worth. LC/MS/MS technology requires a specific method developed on each system to identify specific chemicals. I operate such a high complexity lab for Urine drug testing in the pain management practice. Random presence of other substances cannot easily be identified without the method specifically testing for them. Although various spikes in the mass spec will be seen the method will only be valid for certain specific substances. I am referring to medical grade high complexity licensing (very hard to obtain) and maybe it is different for non medical testing. The typical drug fillers (sucrose etc) could be specifically tested for to see if there is anything unidentified. Someone versed in typical fillers could probably provide a list of such filler compounds.

Mark Thimineur I appreciate the input and clarification, Mark.  Which leads me to a several questions about your work, just out of curiosity.  But, for another time.  I believe it worthwhile to contact several testing companies to inquire about testing.

Paul Beauchemin I've had to send payments to Hong Kong and Russia. I believe they do that do avoid Western Union interference. 

Paul Beauchemin Dropship will deal with you on price, but you must ask for better price.  You over paid.  Last order, I paid $1.65 mg. + shipping of $10 for 350 mg.  I have ordered from them multiple times over the last 2 years.  I order directly from them, and wire the money via my bank. (They send wiring instructions if asked)  It cost me $25 for wire.  I have never sent there Rapamycin to a lab for a HPLC lab purity test.  Usually I receive Biocon brand.  They say they cannot take cc because there is so much fraud in India that banks charge 15% to use them.  Don't know if that is true or not.

Tarek G I can confidently state my hair, after a couple years on 5mg/wk , continues to thin.

Patient 139 Yes - me too.  6 to 10 mg Rapamycin for the past year, hair still thinning.

Tarek G I assume you are make (sorry, not familiar with your name) then you’ll need to first block the conversion of testosterone to DHT. This is the cause of male pattern baldness (MPB). The DHT causes fibrosis in the hair follicle, chokes it, and growth factors are diminished.
 

So you’ll first need to start taking an alpha reductase inhibitor like Proscar 5 mg ( finasteride) or dutasteride .5 mg. This inhibits the enzyme the converts T to DHT.

Then you’ll need to add a regrowth stimulant. Minoxidil. I also recommend alternating between Dr Proctor’s Regrowth Shampoo from Life extension and Nizoral. Dr P’s shampoo contains nano which boosts nitric oxide, a hair growth stimulant. The NO in miNOxidil stands for nitric oxide, 

chuck stanley My reading leads me to be nervous if the HGH causes IGF-1 to go too high.  The claim is that IGF-1 has a just right range - too high or too low is not good.

One set of recommended IGF-1 levels is in the image below.

David Hanson My physician aimed for an IGF-1 in the range of a much younger man, so my level has stayed around 220.

chuck stanley 

Hello Chuck. When I first began to use HGH (Humatrope, by Elie Lilly) in June, 1998, almost nobody knew much about growth hormone. I read and printed out and studied the New England Journal of Medicine article by Dr. Daniel Rudman https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199007053230101 and I tried to imitate what Dr. Rudman did in his experiment. Then I joined doctor forums, and I began to ask questions. "I am in Mexico, and I am taking human growth hormone. What are the side effects that I might get? What IGF-1 should I aim for?" etc.

Most of the doctors ignored me, but Dr. James Hughes found it interesting that I was taking growth hormone.  He told me to get IGF-1 = 350 to 500 for anti-aging.   At the time, I was taking 1.5 iu per day.   My first IGF-1 test came out 360.   Some time later, I increased my dose to 2.0 iu per day, and I tested again.   My IGF-1 came out about 260 !!!  

I was confused, so I wrote to Lazarus Long, who was the person who had set up the first anti-aging clinic in Playa del Carmen, Mexico, to which the very first brave pioneers went to for growth hormone, in the 1990's... These were the persons who later had so many good results with growth hormone that the U.S. FDA finally allowed growth hormone for "adult human growth hormone deficiency."    Lazarus Long told me not to worry about IGF-1 results too much, they are not accurate because the result can be vastly different if we draw the blood sample one or two hours before or after we actually did.   So I didn't worry about IGF-1 too much anymore, but it was useful to know if the HGH is authentic, or not.

At some point, wandering and researching all that I could about HGH, I found a graph of the IGF-1 level of 100 healthy 25-year-old athletes. You can see this graph on my page, here: http://www.rajeun.net/day30.html

As you can see from this graph, IGF-1 was between 350 to about 700, with peak about 500... and some athletes had higher than 700.   I am talking about 1999, I will guess that none of these athletes were taking growth hormone to enhance sports ability, so these were real IGF-1 levels of healthy athletes.

So, 350 to 700 became the range of IGF-1 that I decided to keep for me, and as you can read on the page above, when I stopped taking HGH for 30 days and I took 5 IGF-1 tests in one month, the first test was IGF-1 = 525, and then my subsequent tests dropped (because I was not taking HGH for 30 days) until after 30 days my IGF-1 was 201, which I was very happy with because it showed that my pituitary was NOT fried, as many doctors had suspected it would be.

And now, to get back to your fears.   You are afraid of Blagosklonny's assessment of HGH, and Dr. Alan Green salutes and follows whatever Blagosklonny says.   And when they say it, many other persons and doctors don't question it anymore, and they also tell everybody to be careful of that very bad and dangerous hormone "GROWTH hormone" which they say will... ummm... let's see... Oh, I know!  It might make a small unknown cancerous tumor GROW !!!    And what else might it do ???   Oh, yes!  It might cause DIABETES !  And what else?  Oh, yes, it might cause Acromegalia (giantism)... And what else ???   Oh, yes... it might make the internal organs grow so much that they might BURST OUT OF YOUR ABDOMEN !!!

On the other hand, YOU have taken growth hormone for many years, and YOU have had good results.   DON'T FOLLOW THE BAD ADVICE of these "doctors" who have never injected growth hormone into their own body, not even one time, and they have not prescribed it to any of their patients...

And they have never actually seen the case of ONE PERSON who took growth hormone and then got cancer, caused by growth hormone.  (There are cases of persons who take growth hormone and then go to take a blood test and the PSA shows that they have prostate cancer... which might have actually saved their life, to discover it when they were taking a blood test to monitor growth hormone.)  

But prostate cancer is a slow growing cancer, and there is NO CHANCE that they began to take growth hormone and a few weeks later their Prostate Specific Antigen was so high that they found prostate cancer.

And diabetes is caused after many years of eating incorrectly, not after a few weeks or one year of growth hormone.

And Acromegalia is caused by a deliberate overdose of growth hormone, as in Arnold Schwartzennegger and Toy Soldiers, it takes a huge overdose of HGH over a period of more than 8 months, so it is not caused accidentally by taking 2 iu or 3 iu of growth hormone.

So... I recommend you should NOT LISTEN TO Blagosklonny or Dr. Alan Green when they speak baloney that they don't know is true, but it sounds good so they say it anyways.   YOU follow your own opinion, based on your 10 year experience using growth hormone with great results.  There is no evidence at all that growth hormone causes cancer, or that high IGF-1 (eg, higher than 200 or 250) causes cancer... or diabetes... or acromegalia... etc.

On the contrary, all the evidence is that growth hormone actually PROTECTS US against cancer.

I learned a lot about rapamycin from Dr. Alan Green, and from Blagosklonny... But they don't know anything correct about HGH, so I dismiss what they say about how terrible growth hormone is, and how we should avoid IGF-1 levels above 200.  

And right now, I don't even follow Dr. Alan Green about rapamycin, because he has a bad case of ANEMIA and he doubled his dose of rapamycin from 6 mgs to 12 mgs per week.  I say this is a big mistake, an act of desperation...  it will make his anemia worse, as he sits on his throne as the great doctor who taught us about rapamycin. 

He is a doctor, but he doesn't know anything correct about anemia, which I say is killing him.   And he doesn't know anything correct about growth hormone, so don't follow his advice about HGH.

chuck stanley If I may ask, were you on HGH steadily over that period of time? Did you use prescription (injectible) HGH? 

Dorian Gray yes it was prescription hGH, part of an approved research project with close medical supervision.

chuck stanley 

I believe their concern is hgh stimulates MTOR1 which rapamycin blocks or slows down.

Which raises the question of whether rapamycin will make the HGH ineffective especially if taken close  together? Or HGH will work against the rapamycin?

no one knows the answers to these questions. And it has been suggested in an article I read that the best time to take hgh would be five or six days after the rapamycin dose when the trough level is lowest  and to take a weekly HGH dose. 
and I would expect HGH to benefit MTOR2 Which is a good thing.

that way you might get the best of both worlds.
I think no one knows and I think we each need to experiment and come to our conclusion.

John Mcgough https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2018/02/rapamycin-does-not-interact-favorably-with-growth-hormone-receptor-knockout/

here is that study I referred to

John Mcgough Thanks! Just the information I wanted, and it is consistent with what makes perfect sense to me at this point.

I am hoping that my current anti-aging internist will provide the medical supervision needed. He is older than I and has already expressed interest in pursuing it for himself.

However, he is not local, and in the event of a medical emergency it might be smart to have a local physician with an understanding of the issues and dangers, someone who could see me quickly.

What are the thoughts on that?

chuck stanley 

good luck finding a Doctor Who understands HGH and rapamycin! Dr. Green is the only doctor in the country who worked with rapamycin but he certainly has no experience with HGH.

however I wouldn’t waste my time looking for such a doctor but rather 1. study all the available information and research papers. If you do that you will know more than any doctor you go see other than Dr. Green. Fortunately for us Dr. Green has provided tons of information On his website including the small risk of bacterial infections .

therefore 2. I would try to get a prescription for a Z pack which is what  Dr. Green gives everyone of his patients when they leave his office so at the first sign of bacteria infection you can take this. Maybe your medical person out of state can supply you with this. If not at the first sign of infection I would go to any doctor or clinic and I’m sure they will give you antibiotics since that’s what doctors specialize in.

3. Also I would read the posts submitted by Ellis and doing the appropriate blood test. You could go to any doctor and they would order these test but I would check every few months which means insurance will not pay if the tests are too close together. Therefore in May when life extension has the blood test sale I would order these test and check every few months during the first yearand after you change your dose.

By the way if you did go to see a doctor I would never mention unless you have to that you were taking rapamycin. They are just going to tell you that they believe that’s a dangerous thing to do even though they know nothing about this protocol.

for example 40 years ago I had myeloma   a bone marrow cancer and even to this day doctors won’t give me credit for all the things I’ve done but insist it was a mis-diagnosis or God intervene.( therefore the bone scan, biopsy and urine test which showed cancer were all wrong) It couldn’t be the things I did.

another example is I had two family members with incurable hepatitis C. After doing coffee enemas for six weeks both were told by the doctors that they were cured. When my in-laws told the doctors what they did the doctors reaction was ”stop that immediately it’s dangerous.”

if I had listen to doctors I wouldn’t be here today. It doesn’t mean they don’t have valuable information it just means they’re not all knowing and you have to double check everything they say and make your own decisions.

John Mcgough btw, I cannot criticize Dr. Green for experimenting with 12 mg per week of rapamycin. In 2019 he discovered he had a genetic heart defect and this is his attempt to deal with. I wish him luck And hope that works. However I would consider possibly doing a EPO as Ellis advises but he might be afraid it will make his blood thickerand cause a heart problem. Everything is a balancing act.

John Mcgough btw, you mentioned you were getting your HGH from someone out of state. I suspect you’re paying a very high fee and I would contact Ellis for his recommendations.

John Mcgough before your next rant against the medical establishment, you should realize that Dr Green is not the only doctor involved in this therapy and at least a few doctors post here. 

Karl I am sorry you thought I was ranting  against the medical establishment as that wasn’t my intent but  only recounting  a couple experiences where Drs we’re very negative. I was just trying to let others know they should not be discouraged if a Dr doesn’t approve of rapamycin.  Dr. Green as done us all a great service and the doctors that contribute here have valuable info!

John Mcgough

Re: will rapamycin make HGH ineffective, or will HGH work against rapamycin?

I have taken a double dose (2 iu) of authentic injectable human growth hormone (Humatrope, or Saizen, or other authentic injectable HGH) almost every day since June, 1998.  I continue to take HGH every day, and my intention is to continue to take it every day for as long as I do not have any BAD side effect, and as long as I can afford it.   I have been "warned" by DOCTORS of the "long term" possible side effects, especially that my pituitary gland would stop producing growth hormone.   But growth hormone goes DOWN with age, anyway, and I am now (February 2020) age 74 so that is not a reason to not take growth hormone. 

I listen to many good doctors, but after 22 years of daily HGH, I am still waiting for the first bad side effect to appear, and it hasn't happened yet.  And I have had feedback from literally thousands of doctors and patients who have used HGH, and the worst "side effect" some people report is a little pain at the beginning, which disappears when they lower the dose by half, and later put it back up again.

In my opinion, HGH "fixes me up" INSIDE and also OUTSIDE (skin wrinkles disappear, sagging skin gets tighter) of my body.  I "imagine" that it makes my bones absorb minerals, thus avoids osteoporosis, and it makes my circulatory system more extensive, thus avoiding a fatal heart attack, and it makes my cells divide fewer times, thus avoiding shortening of telomeres, and it repairs cuts or surgery faster, etc.  There were

In short, to me, growth hormone should have been called "repair hormone." but it was called "growth hormone" when it was discovered because it made young mice GROW faster and larger, which was later found to make young midgets grow taller.   (note: I, myself, had the pleasure to sell HGH for a very young female midget to grow to normal height, of course under the supervision of her doctor in Mexico.   The only side effect was that she became brilliantly smarter.)

And then I learned about rapamycin, recently, and I added it to my 8 point anti-aging program which I put together in 1998, following the principles of "risk management" which I had learned as an insurance agent.   What happens to us as we grow older, and how can I stop or slow down or reverse each particular "sign of aging"?  

Rapamycin somehow SLOWS DOWN cell growth.   I accept Blagosklonny's explanation, that each cell grows from infant to adulthood, and then WE WISH they would stop growing older.  Rapamycin somehow interferes with cell growth, and by doing so, it POSTPONES when that cell is "old"...

This is, in many ways, very similar to what growth hormone does, but in a different way.   Growth hormone hopefully keeps telomeres longer... rapamycin hopefully makes cells slow down their rush to Old Age.   I don't see any conflict between them.  

And in any case, I am not going to stop taking my dose of HGH every day.  And I do intend to experiment with rapamycin because Matt Kaeberlein's video shows that even a single short period of rapamycin extended the lifespan of mice. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIGSkzElf0

So it might extend my already (I suspect) HGH extended lifespan.  The more, the merrier.

But I have also taken insulin several times every day for nearly 20 years, and I am not a diabetic.  (attention doctors: before you insist that I am already a diabetic because my pancreas does not work anymore, I inform you that blood tests show that my pancreas is very well, thank you.)

And I THINK that keeping my blood glucose perhaps 30 points lower than they would have been, for 35,000 times or more for three or more hours every time has probably also extended my lifespan... I don't have proof that it is good, but I assume it has been good because WE KNOW that the higher blood sugar goes, the more neurons it might damage, and the more capillaries might be blocked with sugar, which would cause damage especially in the eyes, the kidneys, and the brain.  

So maybe 30 points less average blood sugar for 100,000 hours has also extended my lifespan. 

And I have also kept my red blood cells between 50% and 55% for nearly 20 years with EPO (erithropoyetin.)  I don't have proof that this is good, but MORE OXYGEN running through my veins has surely not been BAD for me, and has probably helped to prevent damage to cells all over my body.

And I have also had about 30 sessions of EDTA chelation, which probably helped to clean out my circulatory system, probably removing LEAD and CALCIUM from my body, which presumably would have damaged many cells, thus shortening my telomeres.

I don't mean to brag, as I am always accused of bragging when I state the facts of what I have done to try to stay young.   I only wanted to say that I see no conflict between taking HGH and taking rapamycin.   A physiological dose of HGH has no bad side effect of any kind, and it has many good benefits... and rapamycin seems to postpone aging, but it might have a bad side effect which is that it might lower red blood cells ("anemia") and it might lower white blood cells. 

So keep an eye out for this, and treat these conditions, if it happens.

Ellis Toussier I enjoy reading your posts. Maybe you've already discovered this. Dr Green takes 12 mg of sirolimus every other week and on the off week he does his senolytics.

 Mark Thimineur  How much Rapa are you giving your dog, and what is his weight?  Also, where did you get the Rapa?  Thank you

Tom Sage Dog weighs 7 kilos. Dose is 0.5mg twice weekly. Currently the medication is Biocon Sirolimus tablets 1mg cut in half.

angie4life Your dog weighs 25 kg. To up the dose give the 2mg twice weekly which is 0.08mg/kg. per dose. Canine metabolism is 30 hour half life compared to human metabolism of rapamycin at 60-70 hours suggesting that twice weekly would be appropriate timing for their drug metabolism. The dosing in the dog aging project is twice weekly last time I checked.

Mark Thimineur thanks so much!

Van Bravo. Please keep us posted as you work through the process.

Patient 139 I am doing an update appx. 1 month after starting Rapa on my new compounded mixture.  My main concern, was it really 99% Sirolimus as stated in the COA (Certificate of Analysis).  I have not had the powder tested.  We have been on lock down now for 2 months in Spain.

I wanted to take the max dose I could without any side effects in order to get max anti aging benefits.  I took 10 mg. the first dose which was 3.333 g. of my compounded powder.  On the fifth day after dosing, I got a mouth sore on my inner cheek.  This was a good sign for me because I have had a lot of experience with Rapa over the last 3 years. (all studies have indicated that simply reducing or not taking Rapa and symptoms disappear)   I reduced my next weekly dose to 6 mg. and had no adverse symptoms.  3rd. dose was 10 mg. and that was without side effects.  Then increased to 12 mg on 4th. dose and on exactly the fifth day I got multiple sores on my tongue and inner cheek.  Now I know that 12 mg is too much, and reduced this week to 8 mg and don't expect any adverse symptoms.  My next dose will be 10 mg and if that goes well will try 11 mg, but will not go back to 12 mg. because that is where I got a lot of sores last time.  If I get any adverse symptoms in the future at any dose, I will back down to a lower dose.

There is no doubt that my Rapa is for real and I will be taking 10-11 mg weekly for sometime.  I am so glad that I ordered the powder from China and compounded it.  I now have a 3 year supply of appx. 150 weeks at 10 mg. weekly.  Have spent thousands on Rapa the last 3 years.  I have frozen the compound in a dark bag to keep out the light.  Take out 2 months worth at a time and store in fridge. 

Hope this helps anyone contemplating taking Rapa for anti aging benefits. 

Van Many thanks for the update and your experiences. I'm a month or two away from my own journey down your same path. I will relate my progress and results. The path ahead is always easier because of the work of our predecessors. Stay well. 

Ludovic Debels You have an expert on this site that has given you the protocol for taking grapefruit juice with rapa.  His name is Dr. Mark Thimineur, and here is his post from 7 months ago.       

• Mark Thimineur
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• mark_thimineur
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• 7 mths ago 
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Karl For myself and anyone who is "self pay" the source is Biocon "Sirolimus" through online Canadian Pharmacy. Price $349 per 100 1mg tabs. For patients who go through insurance it is Pfizer Rapamune. It seems some of the Medicare D plans cover it, at least for now. Once I started the higher cycling regimen, I started using grapefruit juice to impair intestinal P450 and spike absorption 3 fold (half life is unnaffected). It becomes to expensive for many people otherwise and I always do myself what I tell my patients to do. I have to accept that there is a known variability of grapefruit juice effect on sirolimus absorption of 250%-350% so the actual dose may be a little lower or higher and I accept this small risk (again, well studied insider info). Grapefruit juice protocol is one fresh squeezed large fruit about 8 hours prior to dose (night before) and one large fresh squeezed grapefruit morning of with rapamycin taken 30 minutes later. Assume an average 300% increased absorption to determine the proper dose (1/3 of the mg/kg/wk without juice). So far so good.

Van Great info, Thanks!!

Van  Given we (certainly I ) take a boat load of other nutricals each day and this grapfruit tactic is broad (time span) what else may also be bumped up in aborbstion?   

Dasatinib, fisetin,  metformin, all sorts of chinese herbs etc etc?

Do you have a suggestion to be outside the bump up window for other things?  Tnx alot.

Billy Smith  I can't help you with vets in the Carolinas. I can suggest that you obtain it for yourself and use it for your dog - that seems somewhat easier. I can also suggest relative dosing. The dog aging project is using very small doses of .05-.1mg/kg. Conversion of rodent dosing to canine dose is a little complicated because dogs can be such different sizes. That said, I have advised a number of patients how to dose there dogs and have about 10 patients (and my own dog) treating their pets with .4-.6mg/kg every two weeks. The pets respond very well. One vet commented on a 12 year old Boxer that he was surprised at the improvement in health and the weight loss (8 pound) since the last visit and wanted to know what new diet the dog was on. This dog began to play with the young dogs in the house and began jumping up on the owner when greeting, something he had not done in several years. Another 15 year old pet regrew fur and began walking normally wheras before rapamycin had a noticable arthritic gait. My own dog has become spunkier, if you know what I mean. From one dog lover to another, good luck.

Curtis Smith These threads are all over the lot.

Patient 139 The search feature works very well for me.

Based on some of the earlier posts, I ordered a 1 gram sample of Sirolimus from "Xi'an Henrikang Biotech Co., Ltd." on Alibaba.
The delivered sample is labeled "Acrylic Paint" but the vendor says this: >> Hello, it's real Rapamycin, we mark letter R on the bag. If we send package by FedEx, we should change the product name for easy delivery. Sorry that we should tell you this information in advance. <<
Is this legit? Anyone here have a similar experience or have dealt with a reliable vendor?

Sorry, wrong supplier name - it was "Wuhan Hengheda Pharm Co., Ltd.".

Umesh Sood , Same supplier as I used. The one where my Sirolimus levels were identical to when I took "Rapamune": at the same dose. If you decide to have your supply tested for potency/purity  (always advised), I suggest you post the results here.

Steve Roedde Thank you. Was your packet also marked with a different name or was it marked as Rapamycin? I also did not get any certificate of analysis. I am a bit reluctant to accept a packet that is marked as 'Acrylic Paint'!

Umesh Sood I know of one other purchaser who had that label. Not mine  though. Just an "R". And "sample" on the customs declaration (s). I have purchased a couple of times from them... really helpful. If you send them a message via AliBaba they will almost certainly provide a COA. Nothing comes in the package because one does not want to provide more ammunition for the customs people trying to ensure you purchase brand-name medications (probably manufactured from  Rapamycin manufactured in Wuhan).

Steve Roedde Thank you for your comments, very helpful indeed! I will certainly contact them via message as you suggested.

Umesh Sood I would not worry about it at all. Are you really that disturbed that it says acrylic paint on it? They are trying to get it through customs safely for you, dont you understand?

Umesh Sood Same Supplier here too, working good, have CofC and levels in blood.

Umesh Sood Did you resolve your concern about Henrikang Biotech Co. versus Hengheda Pharm Co.?  If so, what are your thoughts now.  I've been researching both companies, and am still not sure which is best.  Thanks.

Steve Olsen 10,000mg for $660 is about 7 cents a milligram, killer price.

I pay about $3/mg.

Steve Olsen Good work. What of the cream? Have not heard of its use.

Patient 139 There are many, many posts about it on here, dont know how you missed them.

Fred Cloud no, you don't.