Rapamycin Cost

Let me clear some things up for people considering rapamycin (generic sirolimus).  I am taking it and so are my dogs!!  (I have a very open-minded vet who trusts my judgement.)

Dr. Green, a very impressive individual, gave me my personal prescription for sirolimus.  I have a very good PPO (Blue Cross/Blue Shield).  I took it to CVS, the affiliated pharmacy, and got a great price of about $2.90/mg.  (Remember, you are only going to take about 3-6 mg/week.)  With a PPO you can probably do this also.  CVS wants to meter it to you with a month's worth of doses at a time, but that's just how they do things.  You still have access to the full quantity prescribed. 

With the prescription from my vet for my dogs, I was forced to take to the open sea.  Armed with only a prescription and no insurance, the picture is quite different, but you can still get a good price.  Cutting to the chase, I ended up at Walmart.  The prescription was for 90 mg - price $1440.  But wait! after presenting a coupon downloaded from GoodRX (that's right, just anonymously downloaded and printed) - price $396!!!!  As my vet remarked, that's a hell of a charge for not looking around first!  ($4.40/mg is better than taking a risk buying online, in my opinion.)  Costco is pretty close to that price.  At CVS/RiteAid, etc., you will pay vastly more.

You can't touch the original drug rapamune (Pfizer) unless you are wealthy or go to Canada.  The problem with the online pharmacies is that a lot of them are scams.  Just because they have a website doesn't mean anything.  At least check to see if they have a brick and mortar location.  Example: At one point I was excited by the online infomercials and wanted to take NMN instead of NR; however, when I looked up the reputations of the suppliers only one was unsullied, and on further investigation their brick and mortar location turned out to be a residential dwelling!

FYI, more than one company makes sirolimus.  From CVS the sirolimus was made by Greenstone, LLC, apparently a wholly owned subsidiary of Pfizer.

Hope that helps some people who are considering rapamycin but think it might be out of their reach.  If you know a doctor, great, but if you don't a visit to Dr. Green is worth the trip, and I live in CA!  (round trip less than $300)  Do your homework first and you will learn a great deal.

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  • Thanks for posting Rob. This is interesting information. I suspect a number of members will find it useful. 

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Maximus Please correct my answer to Ozone8!  The dosages I gave are exactly 10x too high!!!

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  • Thanks for this excellent look at cost, something we all experience and don't  often talk about. I am also interested in hearing about anecdotal experience from taking rapamycin. Notice any changes, positive or negative? I'm not doing this as of yet. I have focused on NAD+ using NR.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Ted Have been taking NR for a few months and not noticing much.  My energy is pretty good, though.  Apparently it's best to take it in the morning on an empty stomach.  Took me a while before I learned that.  I was interested in NMN, but when I looked into it I found none of the so-called companies selling it actually had a brick-and-mortar facility.  The one I liked the most lost its luster when I learned it's address was actually a dwelling.  Can't imagine taking something like that without knowing there is a solid business behind it.

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      • Ted
      • Living long enough to prove them all wrong
      • Ted
      • 1 yr ago
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      Rob8311 My experience with NR has been subtle but important. I do notice a positive energy change and my immune system seems to function better. I really notice it when I stop. I start dragging until I start again.

      Like
  • Addendum: My insurance, after charging me for the first month, gave me a 90-day supply at no copay!  They reevaluated after a month as part of their internal process.  I have very good insurance, though.  I haven't noticed anything after one month, but it has been a tumultuous month for me.  I will now be increasing from 3 mg/week to 6 mg/week.  After 10 weeks, one of my dogs seems more energetic with a better appetite.  The other is very high on both counts so difficult to tell.  Was hoping for some dramatic changes in their arthritis, but haven't seen any.  I will be comparing lab values soon.  No negatives that I can attribute to rapamycin.

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  • What is the dosage of rapamycin for the dogs?  How are you measuring such a small quantity?

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      [Dosing edited/corrected by Maximus Peto at Rob8311's request]

      Ozone8 Don't mess with rapamycin unless you study it first because large doses are harmful. Sirolimus comes in 0.5 mg and 1 mg tablets. I based my dosage on the U of WA study where one group of dogs was MWF at 0.05mg/kg and the other at 0.1 mg/kg. The head of the study told me in an email that their larger, followup study is using a dose of 0.025 mg/kg. Also be aware that the half life of rapamycin in dogs is approximately 39 hours and 62 in people. It is important to give the body time between doses. Read Dr. Green at rapamycintherapy.com and the U of WA study (see attached PDF) before trying rapamycin.

      Also, for dosage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5642271/.

      Like
  • Hi Rob,  I really appreciate your post.  I tried to sign up for the rapamycin trial but was turned down because I had already been taking metformin, and the researchers didn't want me--they were concerned that the test results might not look as good, because  metformin creates some of the same effect as rapamycin. I wrote Bill Faloon and he was kind enough to provide a couple of Canadian pharmacy sources of the drug, though they were much more expensive than your price with your insurance.  However, when I found that no one at Life Extension was willing to vouch for the quality of the drugs from those sources, I felt discouraged. (I trust them even less after hearing what you have to say about Canadian pharmacies.)  In addition, I wasn't eager to take a drug without further information or any doctor supervision. If I don't find anyone closer,  your suggestion of Dr. Green would solve that. Thank you.  ( I have, however, just received a list of so called "innovative doctors" in my area from the Life Extension, and I will check those out before traveling to New York).  I am on Medicare, with a supplemental Part D plan for medications that   works through Walgreens, but based on past experience, I have little faith that I could get a price nearly as good as the $2,90 you mention.    I would appreciate it  if you could let me know the exact name of the drug  your prescription was for. Was it simply for Rapamycin or was there some other name for the form of Rapamycin you were prescribed?  If I knew exact name of the drug, I could probably find out what that drug would cost through my plan.  Also, if I succeed on getting on the drug, I would be interested in trading notes on the results of taking the drug.  Have you considered taking Metformin?  It is much easier and very inexpensive to get?  My dermatologist is a Life Extension reader, knew of Bill Faloon's recommendations about metformin, and was willing to give me a prescription.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Mermaid I'm glad.  Much of this info isn't easy to come by. Rapamune is the Pfizer drug, which is very expensive.  Sirolimus is the generic, and what I am using.  Walmart or Costco are close to the $2.90 with a downloaded coupon from GoodRX.  I went to Walgreens for my pups (so without insurance) and they were awful, but how they would be with Medicare D I can't predict.  They will likely assume you are using it to control transplant rejection and they might very well give you a decent price.  Metformin does not seem to be as strong, but I may take it depending on an analysis of my insulin resistance.  First thing to check for any distributor is if they have an actual physical location that is not a residence.  You can Google their address.  Can you share the list of innovative doctors and tell us how you got LE to give you that info?

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      • Mermaid
      • Mermaid
      • 1 yr ago
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      Rob8311 Thanks for giving me the specific name of the generic drug- Sirolimus, and suggesting Walmart and Costco.  Yes, of course, I can share the information about the "Innovative Doctors."  Turns out Life Extension has a website online where such doctors are listed, and you can find the ones in your area just by putting in your zip code.  I found out about it by asking one of the health advisors.  They seem to be well trained and invariably work hard to try to help you with whatever question you might have.  Below  is the link to the "Innovative Doctors" website:

       http: //health.lifeextension.com/innovative doctors 

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  • Another option is a laboratory supply wholesaler. LC Labs charges by the mg. The dawbacks are (1) you have to measure yourself and divide into doses. I did this just by diluting with chocolate powder so that 1/8 teaspoon = 1 dose. (2) you need a friend at a university address. They won't deliver to a home address. http://www.lclabs.com/products/r-5000

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  • Rob8311 Actually I have  personally been taking rapamycin for over 6 months now, loosely following the Green website and papers by  Blagosklonny. My dosage is 6-7 mg every 7-9 days. So far its value to me is questionable.

    I am using a powdered form obtained from a lab and the cost was about $200 for 500 mg. Weighing out the small quantity needed is a bit imprecise but otherwise this source has worked out well.

    The dosage quoted from the UW dog study seems awfully high. I am certainly not doubting your figures but using even the followup study's lower .25 mg/kg would result in a human dose of approx. 20 mg a couple of times per week. Of course we can't assume 1:1 dogs to humans but that's still quite a bit of rapamycin going to those dogs.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Ozone8 You should doubt my figures!  I'm off by a decimal place - sorry!!  0.025 mg/kg, 0.05 mg/kg, and 0.1 mg/kg (the one my dogs are on) .  Glad you were watching.  So sorry everybody!!  I hope I can revise that post so no one tries those dosages!

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
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      Ozone8 Did you get the age reversal update?  They mention some reasons why some people might not benefit; e.g., you are very fit and into CR.  Also, I think you have to be older.  Dr. Green was in his 70s and suffering when he got great results.  It's possible if you are healthy the benefits might simply be prevention rather than repair, so you won't notice much but you will be less likely to get the diseases of aging that are due to overregulation.  Hard to see how autophagy wouldn't be of benefit, but who knows?  It may be subtle for those who are younger or healthier.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 1 yr ago
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      Rob8311 I haven't yet read that email update but was thinking along the lines you mention. I don't do CR but do practice intermittent fasting (8 hour eating window) several times a week. And at 66 I get a fair amount of exercise and sports. I also take 500 mg Metformin b.i.d. for AMPK activation and other benefits.

      I'm all for the prevention idea and will continue the rapamycin for the time being though a couple of my lab results have slightly worsened. I have also noticed some difficulty in building muscle and a little lower "idle speed" on my internal motor. No mouth sores though.

      Unfortunately the corrected .05/kg (or .025 or .1) dosage for dogs makes it impossible for me to administer to my little Poco as the inexpensive scale I'm using is not accurate enough to measure tiny doses like that. Thanks for making the correction.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Ozone8 If Poco is 5 kg (say 10 pounds) that would be 0.5 mg at the higher dose of 0.1mg/kg.  If you can get close to that you could try a protocol of MF instead of MWF which might allow for a bit of variance in the dose.  I ran this by Matt Kaeberlein (U of WA).  He thought it was a reasonable protocol since not only low dosages but low trough concentrations may avoid side effects.  The low trough concentrations allow more time for mTOR2 production, which as you probably know you don't want to suppress (only mTOR1).

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Ozone8 Post revised by Maximus (thanks!) to reflect accurate dosages of 0.1 mg/kg, 0.05 mg/kg, and 0.025 mg/kg for the first U of WA study high dose, first U of WA low dose, and U of WA followup study dose, respectively.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
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      Rob8311 That is an interesting proposal which we will consider. Poco weighs about 7 kg so I would probably want to try a dose of around .3-.4 mg . The scale I've been using for my own rapamycin measurements is accurate to only +/- 1 mg. Seems like it would be a real crap shoot as to how much I'd be giving him each time. Speaking of the little rascal, he's the one on the right.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Ozone8 Wow.  Those two could own your heart!  These two have captured mine.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 1 yr ago
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      Rob8311 Yours are very cute as well!

      If I try the rapamycin with Poco I'll have to determine what to mix the powder with. Perhaps put it in a small capsule (as I do with mine) and embed the capsule in some sort of treat he will eat without reservation.

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  • Thanks Rob! Good info! I bought my first 90 pills online (Sirolimus, Rocas) after chatting w/ one of Dr. Greens patients and paid ~$350. Got a second batch of 60 a few weeks ago for less since the price/pill was the same at 60 and 90. Was trying 3mg (age73) w/ 8 oz. grapefruit juice which is risky I know, especially now that I am back to 6mg, but so far no problems but am looking for more info as I go and may stop the grapefruit juice "activation", it slows metabolism of rap!

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis Since I am nearing retirement I would be interested in where you bought sirolimus online, and how you have confidence in the seller.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 1 yr ago
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      Rob8311 Last fall I obtained a quote from an Indian pharmaceutical distributor called DropshipMD. The price for 300 1 mg tablets was $1.75 each plus a nominal shipping charge to the US. I instead purchased a powder form from a US lab. There was a thread on Longecity where some had purchased from DropshipMD without a problem.

      If you want to check out their product:

      https://www.dropshipmd.com/buy/rapacan/

      Like 1
  • Since Dr. Green's patient recommended Wind Pharmacy (India) I figured they were probably OK and I have received two orders from them and they certainly seem like the real thing but overseas is likely riskier but the price was good.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis Do you have a website address for this company?

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
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      Ozone8 

      1(718) 395-7740
      https://www.windpharmacy.com/

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis Hmmm... the phone and address for Wind Pharmacy are in New York. I didn't see anything about India. That must mean a prescription is required? 

      Given the fact Wind is over 2.25 times the price I would likely go with DropshipMD which is in India and did not ask for a prescription. Again, they have been used by posters on Longecity with good results.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis I got the impression from Dr. Green that he thought Walmart was a less chancier option, but don't quote me.  I'm just saying I wouldn't go by that unless you ask Dr. Green.

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
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      Rob8311 Yes, I would assume Walmart would be less chancy but aren't they more expensive and don't they require a script?

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis $398 for 90 mg.  It's made by a subsidiary of Pfizer, the maker of rapamune.  You need a prescription but that's not impossible.  Mermaid provided a list of doctors:  http: //health.lifeextension.com/innovative doctors 

      Like 1
  • Additionally, they make some claims about being certified that I haven't checked out but they sound reassuring.

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  • Wind didn't require a script and they might have two locations but if dropship is less and legit I might try them in the future.

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  • How rapamycin should be taken? With meal? On empty stomach? Thanks.

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  • Instructions say: "You may take sirolimus with or without food, but take it the same way every time." I take mine w/ meals.

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    • Dennis 

      Dennis said:
      Instructions say: "You may take sirolimus with or without food, but take it the same way every time."

      This is ridiculous "advice" in the instructions... or it is no advice at all... 

      So what happens if you take it with food sometimes and without food sometimes ? 

      Where do they get this, to write such "advice" in the instructions?   Or should we all salute and accept it as correct, because somebody wrote it when they wrote the instructions on how to take sirolimus?  

      And then, somebody else copied it, and somebody else copied that person too, and so now we all repeat it.    

      In my opinion, take it without food.  Let it work alone without interference of fat, or fiber, or stomach acids thrown out to help digest food, etc.

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 2 mths ago
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      Ellis Toussier More important than when to take it is Dr. Green has updated his website after he was diagnosed w/ a hypertrophic cardiac condition of some sort recently that he now thinks is the cause for the major improvement he saw when starting rapamycin and the cause of his "aging symptoms" that improved a bunch when he started taking it!  If my memory is accurate I believe he said that the drug is likely a lot more effective in this situation (one which I have some experience w/ over 40 yrs. of AFib) than for general aging.

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  • Thank you Dennis. What about grapefruit juice? Do I have to take or don't take it with rapamycin?

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  • Probably best to follow Dr. Green's advice and not take grapefruit juice since the evidence is weak of it helping and it complicates things.

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    • Dennis Fink be aware grapefruit juice can damage muscles if you are taking a statin, as is common in many older people.

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
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      are we there yet Thanks! Hadn't heard that! Other dangers of statins had me quit the one my VA doc recommended several decades back but was reconsidering some when I saw Alan Green, MD. recommending them as part of his anti-aging strategy. It seems as though a pescatarian diet and exercise, etc. has made my cholesterol numbers pretty good!

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      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis Fink I also quit statins several years ago and began relying on moderate exercise and a pescatarian diet, which has worked out well for me. I belong to an HMO, which has rigid protocols and  peddles the standard range of pills. Statins, also nitrates, have been an either-or choice for me. As both have been established as having the potential   for serious harm, I no longer take anything my HMO prescribes. That experience partly explains why I'm gun-shy about strong drugs like metformin.

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    • Don  "strong drugs like metformin" ???   Are you kidding?   In what way is metformin a "strong drug" ?   Metformin lowers your resistance to insulin, so it makes the insulin your body produces a little bit more effective.    As far as I know, it has zero side effects... or have you heard of any side effect of metformin ?

      Note: I am not a great fan of metformin.  But I agree that it is the second best way to control blood glucose.

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      • Don
      • Don
      • 2 mths ago
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      Ellis Toussier 

       

      If one needs metformin to control blood glucose, I'd say use it. I suppose low-dose metformin without that need for it, should also be OK. I'm only cautioning we shouldn't underestimate the strength of any drug or ignore possible side effects, which are seldom mentioned here. There's a bit of controversy about metformin that I haven't seen reported in Life Extension's publications or at RAADFESTs. Those of us who use it should look to various sources to be well-informed.

      "In 2006, for example, a Netherlands-based study tracked 390 Type 2 patients who were taking 850 mg of metformin or a placebo three times daily for an average of 4.3 years. The study found that continued use of metformin increased the risk of a B12 deficiency by 19 percent, and the risk climbed higher for those over 50. The findings suggest that nearly one out of every five people taking metformin might have a B12 deficiency."

      https://www.type2nation.com/treatment/metformin-users-risk-vitamin-deficiency/

      "Metformin is currently recommended as a first-line therapy for treatment of type 2 diabetes mellitus because of its low cost, side-effect profile, and possible systemic benefits. Despite these advantages, cautious use of metformin has been recommended by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in patients with chronic kidney disease (CKD) due to safety concerns, including risk for lactic acidosis. Specifically, the label states that metformin is contraindicated at an estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR) < 30 mL/min/1.73 m2, and it is not recommended to initiate metformin at an eGFR < 45 mL/min/1.73 m2.

      Despite these recommendations, the data on the risk for lactic acidosis in patients with CKD on metformin have been conflicting; some studies have shown increased risk while others have not…"

      https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/902022

      Just sayin'.

      Like
    • Don  Okay... I concede the point.  I had never heard of metformin causing vitamin B-12 deficiency, but now I have heard of it.  Thanks for pointing it out.

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      • Don
      • Don
      • 2 mths ago
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      Ellis Toussier

       You're welcome. I appreciate your contributions here, and the helpful posts of many others. 

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    • Dennis The grapefruit juice option should be considered if a person is not concurrently taking drugs metabolized by intestinal P450 enzyme complex. The example of statins for cholesterol lowering is the most well known. Barring that, tactical use of grapefruit juice can overcome the poor bioavailability of oral rapamycin.

      After an oral dose 86% of rapamycin is chewed up by the intestinal P450 enzyme and is excreted in feces. Inhibition of this enzyme complex with either ketoconazole or grapefruit juice has been pretty well studied in the oncology literature. In one such study the target dose of rapamycin was 90mg in a once weekly dose which provided the target AUC for the solid tumor being studied. Patients could not tolerate that dose due to GI side effects. It was shown that Ketoconazole administration reduced the required amount of rapamycin to 16mg and administration of grapefruit juice reduced the required amount to 25-35mg rapamycin to reach the same AUC. In other words the intestinal absorption of rapamycin was increased about 300% with grapefruit juice and 500% with ketoconazole. Cohen EE. Clin Cancer Res. 2012;doi:10.1158/1078-0432.CCR-12-0110. 

      The details about grapefruit juice: fresh squeezed is necessary as bottled or canned do not show the same amount of P450 inhibition. Approximately 8 ounces of juice pretty strongly inhibiit the enzyme in about 4 hours and lasts about 24 hours. One large grapefruit provides about 8oz juice.

      Personally, and in select patients, I utilize this P450 inhibition to predictably maximize absorbtion and minimize cost. Consider that 2mg now becomes, in effect, 6mg and the cost savings are large. This is especially true for larger persons. My protocol is to take 8oz freshly squeezed the night before and also the morning of the rapamycin dose. Before deciding about this it would be best to check if any pharmaceuticals a person is taking would be effected by P450 inhibition (only in intestine) or check with your physician.

      Like 2
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 2 wk ago
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      Mark Thimineur Well said Mark! Totally agree!

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      • Larry
      • Larry.1
      • 13 days ago
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      Mark Thimineur I tried grape fruit juice when I first started Rapamycin three years ago. I would get mouth sores regularly until I stopped the juice addition. I think part of the problem is that GF juice increases the half life of rapamycin so it starts to down regulate mTOR C2, which affects the immune system. I consider mouth sores a possible sign you've pushed mTOR C2 too hard. I'm not an expert like you Mark, just an opinion. 

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    • Larry to answer this with adequate explanation I’ll defer to study of grapefruit juice on drugs called “statins” which treat hypercholesterolemia. Like rapamycin the have low bioavailability (5%) vs 14% for rapa. The reason is both drugs have a first pass effect in which most drug succumbs to the enzymes in the lining of the duodenum. Grapefruit juice irreversibly inhibits the enzyme until more is made which takes 24 hrs to fully reverse. In the presence of grapefruit juice the statin drugs absorb dramatically more with huge increase in plasma concentration. The subsequent hepatic metabolism is unnaffected with the same half life with or without grapefruit. But for the 5 half lives needed to clear the drug the levels are increased thereby increasing the area under the elimination curve (AUC) and, in the case of statins producing deadly toxicity. The same for rapamycin - the AUC is increased but not the elimination half life. If grapefruit juice is used there needs to be dose alteration. Ex: a 5mg dose will effectively become 12.5-17.5mg with juice. Notice it is a range because the increased bioavailability has been measured to be a range of 250-350% - so we are not all the same. 
       

      I’m somewhat concerned that forum participants refer to a milligram number such as “5” as an appropriate dose. The size of a person matters and dosing should be described in terms of mg/kg body weight. A 55kg person is not nearly the same as a 140 kg person in terms of optimal dose. What i have seen suggested ranges from .05 to .1mg/kg although i notice now that Dr. Green has increased his personal dose to .2mg/kg. 
       

      For a 75kg person I would cycle between 2mg and 3mg per week with grapefruit juice making the effective dosing without juice 5mg-7mg up to 7.5-10.5mg. If side effects occur at the 3mg dose the regimen would be altered to have less 3mg representation. Doing simple math one can appreciate the cost savings for people on the heavier side. 
       

      it may be helpful for people to cycle themselves between the higher level and lower level doses and appreciate the dose dependent effects. If choosing grapefruit juice to increase bioavailability make sure to adjust dosing and realize there is a “range” of possible exposure as i have illustrated above. Hopefully this is helpful. 

      Like 3
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Thimineur 

      great post Mark.

      What too high of dose side effects would you look for?

      cheers

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      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 10 days ago
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      Mark Thimineur are you saying Dr Green is taking 15 mg (.2 mg/kg)? Are basing this on actual weight or lean body mass?

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    • BobM The only side effect of note has been mouth sores which I have seen in a very small % of patients taking .1mg/kg dose per week or less. I have seen two patients with an idiosyncratic reaction to even small doses of rapamycin in which they felt fatigue and body pain but this is not a dose dependent issue as they felt it even at 1mg/week. I have not pushed dosage over .1mg/kg purposely but in some patients using grapefruit juice the range of dosage possibility makes it probable that some are over this dosage for brief cyclical periods.

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    • Karl I saw a recent interview with Dr. Green state he was now taking 12mg per week and he also stated he had purposely lost 10 pounds making his body weight around 145 pounds or around 66kg so it is slightly less than .2mg/kg but close enough and more than twice his start up protocol of 6mg/week when he weighed over 170lbs. It is interesting. We really don't know optimum dosage for longevity as the rodent studies have  used dosages which are all over the map. The difference between the lowest dietary rapa and highest in the rodent studies is at least 4-fold and all doses are much higher than we are talking about. The lowest dietary rodent regimen showed about 5% longevity and the highest shows about 26% avg life extension - so we really don't know.

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      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 10 days ago
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      Mark Thimineur that is the problem with all of this - insufficient data.

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    • Karl Agree. For the purposes of self experimenters, it would be helpful if expression of dose be done in the mg/kg such that the observations people are making could be better appreciated in terms of dose response and dosage driven side effects. We are all experiments with an "n" of 1. Even some semblance of standardization among experimenters would be great - particularly for rapamycin.

      Like 1
  • Rob,

    What is the name and address of your "open minded" vet? I have been looking for such a vet to administer the Oisin Biotechnology treatment (see https://www.oisinbio.com) that clears senescent cells from aging animals (and hopefully humans). All the vets I have contacted in the Seattle area about treating my two agility-champion Shetland Sheepdogs, 15 and 16 years old, are reluctant to cooperate.

    Like 1
  • Hello,

     

    I just received my Rapamycin, made by Profound Products, called RapaPro.  The bottle has 12 scored tablets in it with directions to take one quarter, one half , or one tablet per week(1.25 mg to 5 mg) as directed by your physician .  Trying just trying  to figure out now which dose to start with , for both myself and my pup!  No Rx required for this product .

    Like
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      angie4life You are rolling the dice to get this without a prescription.  Make sure they have an actual physical location.  Probably get their stuff from China - not necessarily bad, but not necessarily good either...  See above for dog dosage (read all as I was off by 10x at first).  I started at 3 mg 1x/week.  Now at 6mg where I expect to remain (per Dr. Green).  Just had one of my best blood tests ever.  Almost everything was in range and I am 67.

      Like 1
    • Rob8311 I am interested to know the results of your blood tests.  Which test in particular came out "best" than ever ?  

      In particular, look at "hematocrit" and "hemoglobin" and if you can compare with previous blood tests, see if they are lower now than before.  

      Rapamycin lowers hematocrit and hemoglobin.  (Hematocrit means the percent of your blood that is red blood cells... red blood cells carry hemoglobin, and hemoglobin carries OXYGEN... which is crucial for you to feel well.)

      The blood test you that you should get is "sirolimus level"...  You probably can get this test done in a hospital blood lab.   Take your dose (6 mgs) and test "sirolimus level" exactly 2 hours after your dose (which is the high point... transplant patients test at the low point...)   

      My opinion is that 6 mgs 1 time per week, as per Doctor Green, is too high, even for Dr. Green... You should not want to have your high point much higher than the range of the low point of transplant patients, which is 5 ng/ml to 20 ng/ml.

      In any case, I am just guessing... but I never guess wrong.   Take the "sirolimus level" blood test and I predict that you will find it is higher than the low point of transplant patients (ie, it will be higher than 20 ng/ml)

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier I think half-life of 62 hours plays a big part in side effects. Someone taking this daily will build up higher levels in their blood than someone taking weekly. 

      Like
  • Awesome to hear, Rob!

    Do you think you feel better with the Rapa?

    This that I have  is manufactured by Profound Products , and the box says its made in the EU.  I use Profound's Metformin, and also their low dose naltrexone, and have always found these products to be high quality, so hopefully the Rapa is just as good.  I think I'll start with 1/4 tab , as I weigh 108 lbs, and maybe 1/8 tab for my 50 lb dog.  My ultimate goal is to give some to my mom, but feel like I have to try it myself first haha.

    Like
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      angie4life Not sure if I feel better.  Under a ton of stress trying to help one of my dogs keep the use of her rear legs (disc problems), and maybe starting to deal with it better.  She was getting shaky and panting a lot - she has mild valve disease but not in CHF.  It seemed harmless, so I had the doggie physical therapists we are seeing try an ozone therapy treatment.  I am cautiously thrilled.  The panting is way down and she is much more stable on her legs, plus more energy.  Basically they shoot O3 up her rear. The Os break off and oxygenate her system.  Would like to try it myself.  How is LDN working for you?  I have it for my pups only, but one of them seemed to get a lift from it.

      Like
  • Profound Products doesn't sell directly to consumers. I tried several companies they list but so far haven't found one that carries Rapa-Pro. I don't have a prescription. Angie4life, whom did you get yours from and did they require a prescription?

    Like
    • Don 

      Like
    • hi Don,

      i got my Rapa Pro (rapamycin), my Metformin (also made by Profound ), and just recently my low dose naltrexone (also by Profound ) from International Anti - Aging ; I believe It may be called Anti- Aging Systems now .The only one I’ve tried by Profound so far is the Metformin and it works fine .  I usually get my low dose naltrexone from Israel Pharmacy and order through the Buy LDN website that takes me to the link . On this website , you can buy smaller doses of LDN and work your way up to the top dose of 4.5 mg , whereas the Profound product only comes in 4.5 mg . I got it from Anti- Aging this time , as they were having a good sale . Works great for autoimmune issues and gives very vivid dreams sometimes!

      Like 1
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      angie4life 

       

      Hello, Don, Angie, and RescueElders group,

      This is Rudi Hoffman from Florida, new to this group and a 25 year LEF and antiaging/cryonics enthusiast/lay scientist.  Having met them at the last RAAD (my third) I ordered a week ago RapaPro and Metformin from International Anti-Aging Systems.  I read the magazine these folks put out, the endorsements, and they seem very legit and reputable (although I could of course always be wrong.)  
      I will be taking the Rapamycin at the recommended 5 mgs/week level for three months, unless side effects occur.  I currently take Metformin (India offshore source, my doctor won't provide script because my sugar is normal) at 500 mg time release 2/day.  And a bunch of other mostly LEF products I will provide on a different format so we can try to do something that looks like real science on the universal problem of aging.  

      The easiest person to fool is ourselves.  I understand my tendency toward "magical thinking" and try to counteract it.  Which is why I have just taken the AGE PANEL BLOOD TEST recommended by Bill Faloon on this site.  We/I want HARD DATA as well as anecdotal reports of effects.  I commit to reporting what is REAL, whether it is good, bad, or indifferent. 

      This will be interesting.  Thanks to you all for your candor, integrity, sincerity, and willingness to be "Health expansion test pilots!"  May I respectfully join your ranks?
      Rudi

      Like 1
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      angie4life Hi Angie. Thanks for your prompt reply. I had put in an order for Rapa-Pro through IAS and their payment request likely wound up in my spam folder. They never replied to my inquiry using the link to their "expert consumer support team". I'm submitting a new order today and shall see how this one works out.

      My original order included metformin. For the present I'm staying away from metformin as it reputedly depletes B-12 and raises homocysteine levels. Those problems could be counteracted by supplements, I suppose, but sometimes I feel I'm over-supplementing and bringing on digestion issues. 

      My dream life is strange. Weeks go by without dreams (none I recall, anyway) and then I'll get a vivid dream or two. I can't relate my dreaming to anything I'm taking. If I could, I'd take more of whatever it is.

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi Welcome, Rudi. I'm a most infrequent contributor here. I like reading here when I can scrabble up the free time.

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi By the way, are you confident enough about the quality of products you get from your  India source to use it to get rapamycin?  

      Like
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don Hey Don and Rudi! I got my rapamycin from India twice and China once and the products certainly look genuine but getting a lab test is not something I'm up for yet. Great that you are getting the lab work done Rudi! I'll look to see if their is a separate senolytics section since I ordered fisetin which Bill Faloon didn't mention but very recent research shows is fairly close to dasatinib in senolytic ability at least in mice. They have started human trials with it (available as supplement, 100 mg Swanson, etc.) and it is much  cheaper than dasatinib and has no reported side effects since it has been around for years and is found in fruit, etc., so I'll likely try a few hundred milligrams next week w/ some quercetin.

      Like
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Dennis I should mention that I haven't noticed the huge improvement on met/rap that Dr. Alan Green did but my DNAm test last month showed 71 vs. my actual age of 74 and I'm sure my cancer risk is way down and I do feel better after a year on the two drugs! Will be trying NAD patches also, along w/ NR.

      Like
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi Hi Rudi,

      Thanks for info about IAAS.  I absolutely agree with the need for measurement data.  I am going to be doing some experimenting with senolytics both with myself and with my aging pups.  Long shot, but I am wondering if there are tests that specifically indicate changes due to senescent cell removal.  One thing to keep in mind for those of us who are trying a lot of different things: if you see a sudden improvement, it might be the last thing you tried, but also (from a knowledgeable vet) our bodies/systems can reach threshold levels where the results only seem sudden.

      Rob

      Like
      • Danmoderator
      • skipping my funeral
      • dantheman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi Welcome Rudi, as a friend and client I'm delighted to see you here, welcome! And thanks for the IAS recommendation, I've been hunting for a source but have been unsuccessful so far. Though now I have to decide if I actually want to try this modality. I already practice regular 4+ water only fasting (which addresses synololitics and lowered calorie as met/rapa do), and I'm only 52 biologically going on 32. Decisions ...

       

      Rudi or anybody can you tell us more about this company? Where are they based out of? They seem rather 'cagy' on their website. 

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Dennis I Thanks for the information on fisetin. I hadn't heard of it. Seems worth checking out.

      Like
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don Definitly worth checking out! Start at https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03430037 .

      Like
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Don 

      Hi Don,

      Re: Confidence in my India source for Metformin...no, I have no way of ascertaining actual quality/content/purity of the Metformin I have been getting.  I believe it has not actually poisoned me to my knowledge.  And I will be probably changing vendors to IAS as there's seems lower in cost and endorsed by Aubrey DeGrey.  
      Best,

      Rudi

      Like 1
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Dan Mc 

       

      Thank you for your nice email, Dan Mc...

      My confidence level in integrity of IAS is based on endorsements in the magazine they passed out at the RAAD and a few good conversations I had with the reps there.  I wish I could speak to their quality control, assays by independent labs, etc.   But I can't.


      I can say there have been no red flags so far.  Although one should be advised that their website doesn't take credit cards, you provide your checking account number for payment and get a phone call a few minutes later to confirm it is a real checking account number.  But the prices seem great on various innovative therapies and molecules I have been reading about and itching to try for many years.   

      Good to have a forum like this to share real data...unsullied by concerns about veracity or bias as a function of the info provider having a vested interest in selling products.  

      Let's make this work.  I commit to total candor and integrity in anything I post on this site (and in general for that matter.) 
      Rudi Hoffman

      Like
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi 

      Sorry, wrong spelling on "their's".

       

      Rudi

      Like
    • Rudi Hi. I've ordered from IAS for years and have always been satisfied with the quality of the products (thyroid medication), and have never had a problem with payments/charges etc. . From my experience, they've been a reputable company.

      Like
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      angie4life 

      Hi Angie,

      Thank you for this helpful confirmation re: IAS.  
      Rudi

      PS...my stuff has arrived I ordered from IAS...faster than expected (I paid the $15 shipping).  We can safely assume that molecules are as expected.  Those little suckers are so small I can't see them, so I am glad to have the reasonable assurance of common sense and this group of pioneers to provide me some sense of independent corroboration. 

      Like 1
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Thanks, Rudi.

      My payment to IAS finally went through. I'll report on my use of Rapamycin, if I notice anything to report, or if I don't. Which may take some time.

      Like
    • Don Hi Don,

      How much of the Rapa do you plan to take?   The directions on the Profound box state to take one quarter, one half, or one tablet per week (1.25mg to 5mg) as directed by your physician . This manufacturer is clearly  indicating a geroprotection dosage.

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      angie4life Hi Angie,

      As I'm new to this kind of supplementation I'm being cautious. I plan to start with a low dose, probably 1/4th of a tab once a week at a specific day and time, and watch for any effects, positive and negative. For  the immediate future I'll rely on subjective responses to decide as whether to increase the dosage. Eventually I'll need to figure out which blood tests are the most relevant to how this product performs.

      Like
      • Danmoderator
      • skipping my funeral
      • dantheman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don AFAIK the only subjective responses in humans are possible negative ones. I haven't seen that there are any positive (such as increased vitality, grey hair reversal, etc). The possible negatives are mouth sores (really high doses I believe) and stomach upset. What's notable is that in the dog study video Bill has shown, the dogs do have significant effects, namely they look and act younger. But in humans I think you have to measure the effects via blood and lab tests. 

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don I'm not a large person and doubt I'll take a full 5 mgs soon. I took 1/2 a tablet, 2.5 mgs, on Sunday a week ago and 1/4th, 1.25 mgs, last Sunday. I thought I noticed some increase in energy the first week, though that's too subjective a response to have much trust in. So far this week I've noticed no effect. I'll continue alternating those doses for another two or three weeks. Unless I notice something specific I expect to settle on 2.5 mgs. 

      Like
    • Don There are two blood tests which I recommend you should take.

      The first is "sirolimus level" which you want to take to see what are your high and your low values... Take your dose, and exactly two hours later, you check for "sirolimus level"   If it comes out, anything at all above zero, that means that sirolimus was detected and your product is real rapamycin.   If it comes out zero, there is no need to take a second test after 7 days and before you take your dose again.   If it is zero, it is zero, it is fake, it is not rapamycin.  

      Assuming that your rapamycin is authentic, you take another blood test seven days later, (exactly 7 days 7 x 24 hours if you can...) to check your low level.

      The second test that you should take is a Complete Blood Count.   In fact, you should take this before you take rapamycin.   If you have already taken a Complete Blood Count in the past, that is good enough.   Then... four or five or six months (take your pick) after you started rapamycin, take another Complete Blood Count, to see if there has been any significant change in white blood cells, and in red blood cells.

      I intend to write a book about rapamycin.   I will answer your question under the FAQ section.   And of course, I will ask everybody on age-reversal forum to comment or to contribute to my (our) book before it is published.  

      Like 1
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier book idea sounds great.

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier 

      Like
    • Vijay Mehta 

      I think if you write a book on anti aging it is more better because aging is still unsolved problem

      As some one told aging is due to 50%reduction of hormones &25℅reduction of antioxidant and 25%due to genetic 

      There is no doubt Rapamycin and senolytic drugs open a new doors of anti aging

      Like
  • Dennis , where do you get the NAD patches?

    Like
  • See https://forum.rescueelders.org/t/x12myt/nad-patches for starters, David Michel provided some good info and he is ahead of me! He got nasal spray also but he may have paid a $350 consultation fee but that is just a guess.

    Like
  • My dog, Bailey, and I have been taking Rapamycin now for going on 9 weeks. I under-dose Bailey, who is 110 pounds. He receives 1 mg every 3rd day of the week. He is 6 years old. His appetite has improved, and his mood is now downright joyful. He jumps and plays just like a puppy now. I hope to keep him on Rapamycin, perhaps with several breaks during the year. For myself, I take 1 mg with grapefruit juice once-a-week. I am 53 years of age, and I weigh 100 pounds. I was born with a birth defect that renders my left leg joints stiff and painful in the mornings. It works itself better as the day goes on. However, I should note here that around my 7th week on Rapamycin this morning joint stiffness and pain has completely disappeared. Seriously...no joke...this is a problem that I've had forever. I am a rapamycin believer. :) <3 

    Like 2
  • I found an app that reduces rapamycin cost with drug specific coupons to about 23% of  public price.  I have used it on two prescriptions. search for 'goodrx' and type in the rapamycin or sirolimus to see which pharmacies in your area  are discounted

    Like
  • See top... GoodRX reduced the price from $1440 to $396 for 90 mg at Walmart, not quite as good as your 23% but pretty great. It depends entirely where you take the coupon.  Wahlgreens and CVS still wanted to overcharge, and they also limited the amount, regardless of what the coupon said.  Costco is good.  Don't assume your insurance won't cover.

    Like
  • I am an 82 yr old who happened onto Rapamycin research from a psychology CEU class.  I was doing CR, not overweight (5'3" 117#), taking Valsartan for HBP otherwise in good health (only arthritic stiffness).  I have done supplements forever with who knows what results.  In another CEU class I learned about benefits of modafinil (increased energy, motivation, concentration)which I take regularly (100mg daily).  Other than those only bioidentical HR.  The rapamycin research data persuaded me to give it a trial run.  I purchased via dropmed and began in August with first 2mg then 3mg,  weekly to test for side effects.  I had mouth ulcers the first week; since then no noticeable side effects.  Beginning in Sept I have taken 4mg every Fri morning.  I also tried Metformin but couldn't tolerate the GI effects.  As per Green's recommendation I began MittQ 100mg daily which may  produce similar effects to Metformin?  My observations so far (approx. 3 months): increased energy, greater flexibility and strength, improved gait (less wobbly).  My activity level has significantly increased; for example, this morning I raked and bagged leaves; hauled logs in the house; swept out the garage--spending 2-3 hours actively moving in 40degree weather.  In the recent past I could not have done this (too weak, too stiff) + wouldn't have had the energy or motivation to do it.  The effect might be placebo; time will probably tell.  I intend to continue on the present schedule.   I will have lab work early January which I will report on.  My cholest has always been low with HDL > LDL;  all values except thyroid in range (I also supplement thyroid .075).  I don't have any medical input at present.  

    Like 2
      • Van
      • Van
      • 7 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Janice   I saw Dr. Green over 2 years ago.  One of his first patients.  At 82 yo., the ideal dose is probably 5 mg. weekly.  Women require less than Men in that they are more sensitive to MTor inhibition than men.  I take 6 mg. for 2 years, at 72 yo.  No side effects.  Also, Bicon is the largest manufacture in India, very good reputation, this is the brand Sirolimus that dropmedmd usually uses.  Dr. Attia also recommends 4-7 mg., weekly for men

      Like 1
    • Van You wrote  "...5 mgs. weekly.... Women require less than men in that they are more sensitive to MTor inhibition than men."  

      I wonder who told you this, and how did that person measure mTor inhibition in men and in women in order to know that it is greater in men than in women?  

      I assume that since you went to see Dr. Green, he told you this.  

      With all due respect to Dr. Green, I am afraid that doctors often say things that they don't know is true, but they say it anyways, and they say it as if it is a fact.  Then we accept it as true because a "doctor" said it, and then we repeat it, and it becomes a part of the "common wisdom."  

      But I have never seen or read anywhere that mTor inhibition has been measured in men or in women.  So until I know that it can be measured, I will leave it in the bag of things that doctors say, but they are just guessing.    I trust that MTor is being inhibited with rapamycin... but I have never read anywhere that it can be measured.

      Like 1
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 12 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Janice Sorry to go off topic but a quick question - how do you get modanifil, prescription?

      Like
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