Rapamycin Cost

Let me clear some things up for people considering rapamycin (generic sirolimus).  I am taking it and so are my dogs!!  (I have a very open-minded vet who trusts my judgement.)

Dr. Green, a very impressive individual, gave me my personal prescription for sirolimus.  I have a very good PPO (Blue Cross/Blue Shield).  I took it to CVS, the affiliated pharmacy, and got a great price of about $2.90/mg.  (Remember, you are only going to take about 3-6 mg/week.)  With a PPO you can probably do this also.  CVS wants to meter it to you with a month's worth of doses at a time, but that's just how they do things.  You still have access to the full quantity prescribed. 

With the prescription from my vet for my dogs, I was forced to take to the open sea.  Armed with only a prescription and no insurance, the picture is quite different, but you can still get a good price.  Cutting to the chase, I ended up at Walmart.  The prescription was for 90 mg - price $1440.  But wait! after presenting a coupon downloaded from GoodRX (that's right, just anonymously downloaded and printed) - price $396!!!!  As my vet remarked, that's a hell of a charge for not looking around first!  ($4.40/mg is better than taking a risk buying online, in my opinion.)  Costco is pretty close to that price.  At CVS/RiteAid, etc., you will pay vastly more.

You can't touch the original drug rapamune (Pfizer) unless you are wealthy or go to Canada.  The problem with the online pharmacies is that a lot of them are scams.  Just because they have a website doesn't mean anything.  At least check to see if they have a brick and mortar location.  Example: At one point I was excited by the online infomercials and wanted to take NMN instead of NR; however, when I looked up the reputations of the suppliers only one was unsullied, and on further investigation their brick and mortar location turned out to be a residential dwelling!

FYI, more than one company makes sirolimus.  From CVS the sirolimus was made by Greenstone, LLC, apparently a wholly owned subsidiary of Pfizer.

Hope that helps some people who are considering rapamycin but think it might be out of their reach.  If you know a doctor, great, but if you don't a visit to Dr. Green is worth the trip, and I live in CA!  (round trip less than $300)  Do your homework first and you will learn a great deal.

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  • Thanks for posting Rob. This is interesting information. I suspect a number of members will find it useful. 

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Maximus Please correct my answer to Ozone8!  The dosages I gave are exactly 10x too high!!!

      Like 1
  • Thanks for this excellent look at cost, something we all experience and don't  often talk about. I am also interested in hearing about anecdotal experience from taking rapamycin. Notice any changes, positive or negative? I'm not doing this as of yet. I have focused on NAD+ using NR.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Ted Have been taking NR for a few months and not noticing much.  My energy is pretty good, though.  Apparently it's best to take it in the morning on an empty stomach.  Took me a while before I learned that.  I was interested in NMN, but when I looked into it I found none of the so-called companies selling it actually had a brick-and-mortar facility.  The one I liked the most lost its luster when I learned it's address was actually a dwelling.  Can't imagine taking something like that without knowing there is a solid business behind it.

      Like
      • Ted
      • Living long enough to prove them all wrong
      • Ted
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 My experience with NR has been subtle but important. I do notice a positive energy change and my immune system seems to function better. I really notice it when I stop. I start dragging until I start again.

      Like
    • Ted Today--- I'm a 69 year old mason. In 2016 and 2017 the work days left me totally exhausted to the point that I was about to put the tools away and search out another job. I read about Dr Green and Rapamycin in the spring of 2018 and after a little research made my appointment. I explained my work and fatigue and asked the Doctor if he thought I could work another 5 years with this therapy. He felt that was a reasonable request and I began 4mg weekly of Sirolimus from Walmart. That along with Lisinopril and otc Mito-Q. This was now Sept 2018.

      This routine doesn't provide any immediate results but after six weeks I just felt a little better at days end. Winters are slow and in spring I went back at my work with enthusiasm now on 5 mg. In July I developed a hernia. I was working and staying about 6 hours away from home and decided to use the elastic devices available online to keep the hernia under control. By September it was obvious my right shoulder wasn't working properly. I had a left rotator cuff tear repaired 12 years earlier so I had a good idea what was going on. And the final insult came with a hurtful case of carpal tunnel in my right wrist.

      I worked through the fall till the holidays, returning home to see my family doc for the referrals. ( He is supportive of Dr Green's therapy and supports me with new prescriptions. ) Two weeks ago I had my hernia surgery. Feb 3 will be my shoulder surgery followed in 6 weeks by the carpal tunnel repair.

      I attribute this cascade of structural failures to the increased energy level from the Sirolimus and MitoQ. That and my ignorance of the increased wear on my 69 year old frame. I expect rehab will be long and uncomfortable but I will return to work in June mindful of all the gifts I've been given. So far for me the Sirolimus is wildly successful.

       I would end with this caution, Be careful what you wish for.

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    • Patient 139 And yes I stopped the Sirolimus at Christmas and will begin again in June.

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    •  Patient 139 Sorry to hear it! Well, at least you will feel better. I went back from rehab as well, though it wasn't some post-surgery one. I had some severe alcohol issues and for those who are in trouble, I want to recommend this list of hotlines: https://addictionresource.com/addiction-and-rehab-hotlines/

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  • Addendum: My insurance, after charging me for the first month, gave me a 90-day supply at no copay!  They reevaluated after a month as part of their internal process.  I have very good insurance, though.  I haven't noticed anything after one month, but it has been a tumultuous month for me.  I will now be increasing from 3 mg/week to 6 mg/week.  After 10 weeks, one of my dogs seems more energetic with a better appetite.  The other is very high on both counts so difficult to tell.  Was hoping for some dramatic changes in their arthritis, but haven't seen any.  I will be comparing lab values soon.  No negatives that I can attribute to rapamycin.

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  • What is the dosage of rapamycin for the dogs?  How are you measuring such a small quantity?

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      [Dosing edited/corrected by Maximus Peto at Rob8311's request]

      Ozone8 Don't mess with rapamycin unless you study it first because large doses are harmful. Sirolimus comes in 0.5 mg and 1 mg tablets. I based my dosage on the U of WA study where one group of dogs was MWF at 0.05mg/kg and the other at 0.1 mg/kg. The head of the study told me in an email that their larger, followup study is using a dose of 0.025 mg/kg. Also be aware that the half life of rapamycin in dogs is approximately 39 hours and 62 in people. It is important to give the body time between doses. Read Dr. Green at rapamycintherapy.com and the U of WA study (see attached PDF) before trying rapamycin.

      Also, for dosage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5642271/.

      Like
  • Hi Rob,  I really appreciate your post.  I tried to sign up for the rapamycin trial but was turned down because I had already been taking metformin, and the researchers didn't want me--they were concerned that the test results might not look as good, because  metformin creates some of the same effect as rapamycin. I wrote Bill Faloon and he was kind enough to provide a couple of Canadian pharmacy sources of the drug, though they were much more expensive than your price with your insurance.  However, when I found that no one at Life Extension was willing to vouch for the quality of the drugs from those sources, I felt discouraged. (I trust them even less after hearing what you have to say about Canadian pharmacies.)  In addition, I wasn't eager to take a drug without further information or any doctor supervision. If I don't find anyone closer,  your suggestion of Dr. Green would solve that. Thank you.  ( I have, however, just received a list of so called "innovative doctors" in my area from the Life Extension, and I will check those out before traveling to New York).  I am on Medicare, with a supplemental Part D plan for medications that   works through Walgreens, but based on past experience, I have little faith that I could get a price nearly as good as the $2,90 you mention.    I would appreciate it  if you could let me know the exact name of the drug  your prescription was for. Was it simply for Rapamycin or was there some other name for the form of Rapamycin you were prescribed?  If I knew exact name of the drug, I could probably find out what that drug would cost through my plan.  Also, if I succeed on getting on the drug, I would be interested in trading notes on the results of taking the drug.  Have you considered taking Metformin?  It is much easier and very inexpensive to get?  My dermatologist is a Life Extension reader, knew of Bill Faloon's recommendations about metformin, and was willing to give me a prescription.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Mermaid I'm glad.  Much of this info isn't easy to come by. Rapamune is the Pfizer drug, which is very expensive.  Sirolimus is the generic, and what I am using.  Walmart or Costco are close to the $2.90 with a downloaded coupon from GoodRX.  I went to Walgreens for my pups (so without insurance) and they were awful, but how they would be with Medicare D I can't predict.  They will likely assume you are using it to control transplant rejection and they might very well give you a decent price.  Metformin does not seem to be as strong, but I may take it depending on an analysis of my insulin resistance.  First thing to check for any distributor is if they have an actual physical location that is not a residence.  You can Google their address.  Can you share the list of innovative doctors and tell us how you got LE to give you that info?

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      • Mermaid
      • Mermaid
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 Thanks for giving me the specific name of the generic drug- Sirolimus, and suggesting Walmart and Costco.  Yes, of course, I can share the information about the "Innovative Doctors."  Turns out Life Extension has a website online where such doctors are listed, and you can find the ones in your area just by putting in your zip code.  I found out about it by asking one of the health advisors.  They seem to be well trained and invariably work hard to try to help you with whatever question you might have.  Below  is the link to the "Innovative Doctors" website:

       http: //health.lifeextension.com/innovative doctors 

      Like
  • Another option is a laboratory supply wholesaler. LC Labs charges by the mg. The dawbacks are (1) you have to measure yourself and divide into doses. I did this just by diluting with chocolate powder so that 1/8 teaspoon = 1 dose. (2) you need a friend at a university address. They won't deliver to a home address. http://www.lclabs.com/products/r-5000

    Like 1
  • Rob8311 Actually I have  personally been taking rapamycin for over 6 months now, loosely following the Green website and papers by  Blagosklonny. My dosage is 6-7 mg every 7-9 days. So far its value to me is questionable.

    I am using a powdered form obtained from a lab and the cost was about $200 for 500 mg. Weighing out the small quantity needed is a bit imprecise but otherwise this source has worked out well.

    The dosage quoted from the UW dog study seems awfully high. I am certainly not doubting your figures but using even the followup study's lower .25 mg/kg would result in a human dose of approx. 20 mg a couple of times per week. Of course we can't assume 1:1 dogs to humans but that's still quite a bit of rapamycin going to those dogs.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Ozone8 You should doubt my figures!  I'm off by a decimal place - sorry!!  0.025 mg/kg, 0.05 mg/kg, and 0.1 mg/kg (the one my dogs are on) .  Glad you were watching.  So sorry everybody!!  I hope I can revise that post so no one tries those dosages!

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
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      Ozone8 Did you get the age reversal update?  They mention some reasons why some people might not benefit; e.g., you are very fit and into CR.  Also, I think you have to be older.  Dr. Green was in his 70s and suffering when he got great results.  It's possible if you are healthy the benefits might simply be prevention rather than repair, so you won't notice much but you will be less likely to get the diseases of aging that are due to overregulation.  Hard to see how autophagy wouldn't be of benefit, but who knows?  It may be subtle for those who are younger or healthier.

      Like 1
      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 I haven't yet read that email update but was thinking along the lines you mention. I don't do CR but do practice intermittent fasting (8 hour eating window) several times a week. And at 66 I get a fair amount of exercise and sports. I also take 500 mg Metformin b.i.d. for AMPK activation and other benefits.

      I'm all for the prevention idea and will continue the rapamycin for the time being though a couple of my lab results have slightly worsened. I have also noticed some difficulty in building muscle and a little lower "idle speed" on my internal motor. No mouth sores though.

      Unfortunately the corrected .05/kg (or .025 or .1) dosage for dogs makes it impossible for me to administer to my little Poco as the inexpensive scale I'm using is not accurate enough to measure tiny doses like that. Thanks for making the correction.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Ozone8 If Poco is 5 kg (say 10 pounds) that would be 0.5 mg at the higher dose of 0.1mg/kg.  If you can get close to that you could try a protocol of MF instead of MWF which might allow for a bit of variance in the dose.  I ran this by Matt Kaeberlein (U of WA).  He thought it was a reasonable protocol since not only low dosages but low trough concentrations may avoid side effects.  The low trough concentrations allow more time for mTOR2 production, which as you probably know you don't want to suppress (only mTOR1).

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Ozone8 Post revised by Maximus (thanks!) to reflect accurate dosages of 0.1 mg/kg, 0.05 mg/kg, and 0.025 mg/kg for the first U of WA study high dose, first U of WA low dose, and U of WA followup study dose, respectively.

      Like 1
      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 That is an interesting proposal which we will consider. Poco weighs about 7 kg so I would probably want to try a dose of around .3-.4 mg . The scale I've been using for my own rapamycin measurements is accurate to only +/- 1 mg. Seems like it would be a real crap shoot as to how much I'd be giving him each time. Speaking of the little rascal, he's the one on the right.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Ozone8 Wow.  Those two could own your heart!  These two have captured mine.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 Yours are very cute as well!

      If I try the rapamycin with Poco I'll have to determine what to mix the powder with. Perhaps put it in a small capsule (as I do with mine) and embed the capsule in some sort of treat he will eat without reservation.

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  • Thanks Rob! Good info! I bought my first 90 pills online (Sirolimus, Rocas) after chatting w/ one of Dr. Greens patients and paid ~$350. Got a second batch of 60 a few weeks ago for less since the price/pill was the same at 60 and 90. Was trying 3mg (age73) w/ 8 oz. grapefruit juice which is risky I know, especially now that I am back to 6mg, but so far no problems but am looking for more info as I go and may stop the grapefruit juice "activation", it slows metabolism of rap!

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Dennis Since I am nearing retirement I would be interested in where you bought sirolimus online, and how you have confidence in the seller.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 Last fall I obtained a quote from an Indian pharmaceutical distributor called DropshipMD. The price for 300 1 mg tablets was $1.75 each plus a nominal shipping charge to the US. I instead purchased a powder form from a US lab. There was a thread on Longecity where some had purchased from DropshipMD without a problem.

      If you want to check out their product:

      https://www.dropshipmd.com/buy/rapacan/

      Like 1
  • Since Dr. Green's patient recommended Wind Pharmacy (India) I figured they were probably OK and I have received two orders from them and they certainly seem like the real thing but overseas is likely riskier but the price was good.

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Dennis Do you have a website address for this company?

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Ozone8 

      1(718) 395-7740
      https://www.windpharmacy.com/

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      • Ozone8
      • Ozone8
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Dennis Hmmm... the phone and address for Wind Pharmacy are in New York. I didn't see anything about India. That must mean a prescription is required? 

      Given the fact Wind is over 2.25 times the price I would likely go with DropshipMD which is in India and did not ask for a prescription. Again, they have been used by posters on Longecity with good results.

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Dennis I got the impression from Dr. Green that he thought Walmart was a less chancier option, but don't quote me.  I'm just saying I wouldn't go by that unless you ask Dr. Green.

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Rob8311 Yes, I would assume Walmart would be less chancy but aren't they more expensive and don't they require a script?

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      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 2 yrs ago
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      Dennis $398 for 90 mg.  It's made by a subsidiary of Pfizer, the maker of rapamune.  You need a prescription but that's not impossible.  Mermaid provided a list of doctors:  http: //health.lifeextension.com/innovative doctors 

      Like 1
  • Additionally, they make some claims about being certified that I haven't checked out but they sound reassuring.

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  • Wind didn't require a script and they might have two locations but if dropship is less and legit I might try them in the future.

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  • How rapamycin should be taken? With meal? On empty stomach? Thanks.

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  • Instructions say: "You may take sirolimus with or without food, but take it the same way every time." I take mine w/ meals.

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    • Dennis 

      Dennis said:
      Instructions say: "You may take sirolimus with or without food, but take it the same way every time."

      This is ridiculous "advice" in the instructions... or it is no advice at all... 

      So what happens if you take it with food sometimes and without food sometimes ? 

      Where do they get this, to write such "advice" in the instructions?   Or should we all salute and accept it as correct, because somebody wrote it when they wrote the instructions on how to take sirolimus?  

      And then, somebody else copied it, and somebody else copied that person too, and so now we all repeat it.    

      In my opinion, take it without food.  Let it work alone without interference of fat, or fiber, or stomach acids thrown out to help digest food, etc.

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 8 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier More important than when to take it is Dr. Green has updated his website after he was diagnosed w/ a hypertrophic cardiac condition of some sort recently that he now thinks is the cause for the major improvement he saw when starting rapamycin and the cause of his "aging symptoms" that improved a bunch when he started taking it!  If my memory is accurate I believe he said that the drug is likely a lot more effective in this situation (one which I have some experience w/ over 40 yrs. of AFib) than for general aging.

      Like
  • Thank you Dennis. What about grapefruit juice? Do I have to take or don't take it with rapamycin?

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  • Probably best to follow Dr. Green's advice and not take grapefruit juice since the evidence is weak of it helping and it complicates things.

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    • Dennis Fink be aware grapefruit juice can damage muscles if you are taking a statin, as is common in many older people.

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      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
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      are we there yet Thanks! Hadn't heard that! Other dangers of statins had me quit the one my VA doc recommended several decades back but was reconsidering some when I saw Alan Green, MD. recommending them as part of his anti-aging strategy. It seems as though a pescatarian diet and exercise, etc. has made my cholesterol numbers pretty good!

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      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
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      Dennis Fink I also quit statins several years ago and began relying on moderate exercise and a pescatarian diet, which has worked out well for me. I belong to an HMO, which has rigid protocols and  peddles the standard range of pills. Statins, also nitrates, have been an either-or choice for me. As both have been established as having the potential   for serious harm, I no longer take anything my HMO prescribes. That experience partly explains why I'm gun-shy about strong drugs like metformin.

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    • Don  "strong drugs like metformin" ???   Are you kidding?   In what way is metformin a "strong drug" ?   Metformin lowers your resistance to insulin, so it makes the insulin your body produces a little bit more effective.    As far as I know, it has zero side effects... or have you heard of any side effect of metformin ?

      Note: I am not a great fan of metformin.  But I agree that it is the second best way to control blood glucose.

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      • Don
      • Don
      • 8 mths ago
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      Ellis Toussier 

       

      If one needs metformin to control blood glucose, I'd say use it. I suppose low-dose metformin without that need for it, should also be OK. I'm only cautioning we shouldn't underestimate the strength of any drug or ignore possible side effects, which are seldom mentioned here. There's a bit of controversy about metformin that I haven't seen reported in Life Extension's publications or at RAADFESTs. Those of us who use it should look to various sources to be well-informed.

      "In 2006, for example, a Netherlands-based study tracked 390 Type 2 patients who were taking 850 mg of metformin or a placebo three times daily for an average of 4.3 years. The study found that continued use of metformin increased the risk of a B12 deficiency by 19 percent, and the risk climbed higher for those over 50. The findings suggest that nearly one out of every five people taking metformin might have a B12 deficiency."

      https://www.type2nation.com/treatment/metformin-users-risk-vitamin-deficiency/

      "Metformin is currently recommended as a first-line therapy for treatment of type 2 diabetes mellitus because of its low cost, side-effect profile, and possible systemic benefits. Despite these advantages, cautious use of metformin has been recommended by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in patients with chronic kidney disease (CKD) due to safety concerns, including risk for lactic acidosis. Specifically, the label states that metformin is contraindicated at an estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR) < 30 mL/min/1.73 m2, and it is not recommended to initiate metformin at an eGFR < 45 mL/min/1.73 m2.

      Despite these recommendations, the data on the risk for lactic acidosis in patients with CKD on metformin have been conflicting; some studies have shown increased risk while others have not…"

      https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/902022

      Just sayin'.

      Like
    • Don  Okay... I concede the point.  I had never heard of metformin causing vitamin B-12 deficiency, but now I have heard of it.  Thanks for pointing it out.

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      • Don
      • Don
      • 8 mths ago
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      Ellis Toussier

       You're welcome. I appreciate your contributions here, and the helpful posts of many others. 

      Like 1
    • Dennis The grapefruit juice option should be considered if a person is not concurrently taking drugs metabolized by intestinal P450 enzyme complex. The example of statins for cholesterol lowering is the most well known. Barring that, tactical use of grapefruit juice can overcome the poor bioavailability of oral rapamycin.

      After an oral dose 86% of rapamycin is chewed up by the intestinal P450 enzyme and is excreted in feces. Inhibition of this enzyme complex with either ketoconazole or grapefruit juice has been pretty well studied in the oncology literature. In one such study the target dose of rapamycin was 90mg in a once weekly dose which provided the target AUC for the solid tumor being studied. Patients could not tolerate that dose due to GI side effects. It was shown that Ketoconazole administration reduced the required amount of rapamycin to 16mg and administration of grapefruit juice reduced the required amount to 25-35mg rapamycin to reach the same AUC. In other words the intestinal absorption of rapamycin was increased about 300% with grapefruit juice and 500% with ketoconazole. Cohen EE. Clin Cancer Res. 2012;doi:10.1158/1078-0432.CCR-12-0110. 

      The details about grapefruit juice: fresh squeezed is necessary as bottled or canned do not show the same amount of P450 inhibition. Approximately 8 ounces of juice pretty strongly inhibiit the enzyme in about 4 hours and lasts about 24 hours. One large grapefruit provides about 8oz juice.

      Personally, and in select patients, I utilize this P450 inhibition to predictably maximize absorbtion and minimize cost. Consider that 2mg now becomes, in effect, 6mg and the cost savings are large. This is especially true for larger persons. My protocol is to take 8oz freshly squeezed the night before and also the morning of the rapamycin dose. Before deciding about this it would be best to check if any pharmaceuticals a person is taking would be effected by P450 inhibition (only in intestine) or check with your physician.

      Like 3
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Thimineur Well said Mark! Totally agree!

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      • Larry
      • Larry.1
      • 6 mths ago
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      Mark Thimineur I tried grape fruit juice when I first started Rapamycin three years ago. I would get mouth sores regularly until I stopped the juice addition. I think part of the problem is that GF juice increases the half life of rapamycin so it starts to down regulate mTOR C2, which affects the immune system. I consider mouth sores a possible sign you've pushed mTOR C2 too hard. I'm not an expert like you Mark, just an opinion. 

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    • Larry to answer this with adequate explanation I’ll defer to study of grapefruit juice on drugs called “statins” which treat hypercholesterolemia. Like rapamycin the have low bioavailability (5%) vs 14% for rapa. The reason is both drugs have a first pass effect in which most drug succumbs to the enzymes in the lining of the duodenum. Grapefruit juice irreversibly inhibits the enzyme until more is made which takes 24 hrs to fully reverse. In the presence of grapefruit juice the statin drugs absorb dramatically more with huge increase in plasma concentration. The subsequent hepatic metabolism is unnaffected with the same half life with or without grapefruit. But for the 5 half lives needed to clear the drug the levels are increased thereby increasing the area under the elimination curve (AUC) and, in the case of statins producing deadly toxicity. The same for rapamycin - the AUC is increased but not the elimination half life. If grapefruit juice is used there needs to be dose alteration. Ex: a 5mg dose will effectively become 12.5-17.5mg with juice. Notice it is a range because the increased bioavailability has been measured to be a range of 250-350% - so we are not all the same. 
       

      I’m somewhat concerned that forum participants refer to a milligram number such as “5” as an appropriate dose. The size of a person matters and dosing should be described in terms of mg/kg body weight. A 55kg person is not nearly the same as a 140 kg person in terms of optimal dose. What i have seen suggested ranges from .05 to .1mg/kg although i notice now that Dr. Green has increased his personal dose to .2mg/kg. 
       

      For a 75kg person I would cycle between 2mg and 3mg per week with grapefruit juice making the effective dosing without juice 5mg-7mg up to 7.5-10.5mg. If side effects occur at the 3mg dose the regimen would be altered to have less 3mg representation. Doing simple math one can appreciate the cost savings for people on the heavier side. 
       

      it may be helpful for people to cycle themselves between the higher level and lower level doses and appreciate the dose dependent effects. If choosing grapefruit juice to increase bioavailability make sure to adjust dosing and realize there is a “range” of possible exposure as i have illustrated above. Hopefully this is helpful. 

      Like 4
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Thimineur 

      great post Mark.

      What too high of dose side effects would you look for?

      cheers

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      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 6 mths ago
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      Mark Thimineur are you saying Dr Green is taking 15 mg (.2 mg/kg)? Are basing this on actual weight or lean body mass?

      Like
    • BobM The only side effect of note has been mouth sores which I have seen in a very small % of patients taking .1mg/kg dose per week or less. I have seen two patients with an idiosyncratic reaction to even small doses of rapamycin in which they felt fatigue and body pain but this is not a dose dependent issue as they felt it even at 1mg/week. I have not pushed dosage over .1mg/kg purposely but in some patients using grapefruit juice the range of dosage possibility makes it probable that some are over this dosage for brief cyclical periods.

      Like 3
    • Karl I saw a recent interview with Dr. Green state he was now taking 12mg per week and he also stated he had purposely lost 10 pounds making his body weight around 145 pounds or around 66kg so it is slightly less than .2mg/kg but close enough and more than twice his start up protocol of 6mg/week when he weighed over 170lbs. It is interesting. We really don't know optimum dosage for longevity as the rodent studies have  used dosages which are all over the map. The difference between the lowest dietary rapa and highest in the rodent studies is at least 4-fold and all doses are much higher than we are talking about. The lowest dietary rodent regimen showed about 5% longevity and the highest shows about 26% avg life extension - so we really don't know.

      Like 2
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Thimineur that is the problem with all of this - insufficient data.

      Like
    • Karl Agree. For the purposes of self experimenters, it would be helpful if expression of dose be done in the mg/kg such that the observations people are making could be better appreciated in terms of dose response and dosage driven side effects. We are all experiments with an "n" of 1. Even some semblance of standardization among experimenters would be great - particularly for rapamycin.

      Like 2
    • BobM You should look out for a drop of the immune system, which is the effect we know it will cause in transplant patients. 

      Take a Complete Blood Count, and see if your Hematocrit (percent of blood that is red blood cells) is low or falling.  ANEMIA is less than 40% red blood cells, by definition, but in my opinion 42% is already "bad" and will cause that you tire easily.   If your red blood cells in a previous Complete Blood Count was 45% and now it is 43%, this is a clear sign that you should stop rapamycin now, until you have raised red blood cells again.  (ask me how to raise red blood cells.) 

      And you should see if your white blood cells are falling, or if they are already in the "low" range of white blood cells.  

      I have had feedback from persons who have taken 5 mgs rapamycin per week for one year or more, and they did NOT have appreciable changes in red blood cells or white blood cells.   So I know it is entirely possible that 5 mgs in a single dose every 7 days is a good dose of rapamycin for a lot of people.  

      However, there is NO REASON TO RUSH.   We have never taken rapamycin not even once in our life, before, and it might be good and it might be bad for us.   If we start with 3 mgs in a single dose every 5 or 6 or 7 days (take your pick) for a few months, we will be going "in the right direction," with probably some long term benefit.  If it turns out that we should not take anymore rapamycin, in any case the few months that we did take 3 mgs per week might extend our lifespan and healthspan, as Matt Kaeberlein shows us it did in his (excellent) video. 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIGSkzElf0

      And there is plenty of time in the years ahead to take 5 mgs in a single dose one time every 7 days, and get whatever benefit that might give us in the long run, without perhaps a bad side effect (a drop in red or white blood cells) without even monitoring what is the effect that it is having in our particular case.

      NOBODY KNOWS which is the BEST way to take rapamycin in the long run.   Almost everybody is following what Dr. Alan Green and William Faloon do or say... but there is no reason why they are right and you are wrong if you take it in another way.  

      I am grateful to Dr. Alan Green and William Faloon and others for bringing rapamycin to my attention, but I decide what and how much and for how long, for me.   And I am happy to debate what I suggest with  whoever thinks I am mistaken.

      Like 2
    • Ellis Toussier  Enlightening video.  Dr. Kaeberlein reports a translated increase in lifespan of 60% with 90  days of treatment.  This was Rapamycin version RTB101 at 10mg dose.  

      Like
      • Van
      • Van
      • 5 mths ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier It is pretty easy to determine the correct dose of rapa if you are a health person without many underlying conditions.   I have been taking  rapa for almost 3 years. (73 yo male)  I was Dr. Green's 2nd patient.  The most common over dose symptom is mouth sores.  I have had them a couple of times.  They happen in the inner cheek for me and go away after 3-4 days.  This is the first sign that your TOR inhibition is too strong and it is inhibiting TOR 2, not just TOR 1.  In order to get the maximum benefit from Rapa treament you want to inhibit TOR 1 to the max without inhibiting TOR 2 and getting overdose symptoms.  It is in this area that you get maximum life extending benefits and a boost to your immunity without infringing into TOR 2 territory where you can get reduced immunity such as when kidney transplant patients go there frequently,  So, I would suggest your start out at a specific dose, and if no overdose symptoms then up the dose 1 mg week until you get some sores.  Skip a week and take 1 less mg per week and see how your body does at that dose.  If no sores, then you are probably at the maximum TOR 1 inhibition without TOR 2 side effects.  The Goldilocks area.  You can also read the following trial by Dr. Mannick where they experimented on elderly patients with various doses of rapa and they determined ahead of time what the amount of inhibition would be on a particular dose given.  (page 2)  .5 mg daily, 5 mg weekly, 20 mg weekly

      https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1126/scitranslmed.3009892    So in my opinion, finding a proper dose for a healthy person is not that difficult.

      Like 2
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Van you may be correct in your n of 1, but to generalize would be erroneous. Saying that dosing is easy for a drug used for unapproved indication, that has not been adequately studied in humans for this usage is a bit dubious.

      Like 1
    • @Van 

      Hello Van...  How interesting to know that you are Dr. Green's patient.  

      You say it is easy to determine the correct dose of rapa if you are a healthy person without many underlying conditions.  And you say this can be done by looking out for "mouth sores."   This does not seem like the best way to avoid the worst bad side effect that we want to avoid, which is that rapamycin might depress the immune system, as we know it does in transplant patients.  

      The best way to know if it is depressing the immune system is to monitor the immune system, which we can do with Complete Blood Count.   Compare the first with the second, and you see immediately if red blood cells have dropped, and you see immediately if white blood cells have dropped.   If they have dropped, suspend taking rapamycin until you have corrected the drop.

      I would like to know if Dr. Green asked you to take a complete blood count? 

      And did Dr. Green ask you to take a "sirolimus level" blood test?

      I point out that Dr. Green is "mildly anemic" in his words, but he is "very anemic" by my words. As shown on his page https://rapamycintherapy.com his red blood cells and hemoglobin dropped very noticeably from August 2016 to March 2017. And I will guess that his anemia in January 2020 is probably much worse than March 2017, because his raising his dose of rapamycin from 6 mgs per week to 12 mgs per week is an ACT OF DESPERATION, as he feels the worsening effects of anemia.

      His website, however, says he feels great.  So why did he raise his dose from 6 to 12 mgs per week?

      The most obvious secondary side effect of rapamycin that we should be concerned to avoid is A DROP OF THE IMMUNE SYSTEM, and NOT mouth sores.  

      And the best way to monitor if there is a drop of the immune system is to study the "sirolimus level" of transplant patients, and the sirolimus level that various doses cause in us, and a Complete Blood Count before and after a course of rapamycin for several months.  

      Which is why I recommend you should START with 3 mgs in a single dose for a few months, because there is NO REASON TO RUSH.   If you didn't take the optimum dose for (example) 4 or 5 months, there is plenty of time for you to take a higher perhaps better dose in the future.

      And if the complete blood count shows that you have not had a drop of the immune system (white blood cells) then raise to 4 or 5 mgs in a single dose.

      Like 3
      • Sam Biller
      • Sam_Biller
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier Here is the test from LabCorp. Interestingly, it does reference the 62 hour half life. 

      https://www.labcorp.com/tests/716712/sirolimus-whole-blood

      Incidentally, I recall listening to an extensive Rapa discussion with Peter Attila related to proper Rapa dosage with Matt K. I believe it is still available on his podcasts. They discussed extensively the importance of the trough level of Rapa vs the Peak level. Peter Attia concurs with Dr. Green on the level of ~ 6mg / week which is the dosage Dr. Attia is experimenting with on himself (n of 1). 

      Like 1
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Van Great info Van, thanks much! Has anyone tried the Amazon - "Supersmart - Anti-Aging - Natural Rapalogs - Natural, Effective Inhibitors of mTOR | Non-GMO - 90 Vegetarian Capsules  by SUPERSMART   3.8 out of 5 stars   5 ratings"     I just ordered some after chancing across the add looking for the rapamycin powder which I might order as well. Seems like the Life Extension Foundation might want to try something like these (or offer these)?  

      Price: $49.00 ($0.54 / Count) 
      Like
    • @Sam Biller  

      Hello Sam... Yes, I follow Dr. Peter Attia, and I learn a lot from him.  But even if he is taking 6 mgs., I say we should START with 3 mgs for several months, and we should monitor with a Complete Blood Count periodically, to compare what is happening with red blood cells and white blood cells.   If there is no change, then good for you, you may increase to 4 mgs, or 5 mgs, or 6 mgs.  

      Let's just make it clear that NOBODY KNOWS which is the best dose of rapamycin.  Those of us who have chosen to try rapamycin, based on the gut feeling that it probably does postpone aging, because it has extended lifespan in yeast and worms and fruit flies and mice, as shown in Matt Kaeberlein's video are welcome to try it...

      But WE  KNOW that it lowers the immune system in transplant patients, at the dose that transplant patients take... so THAT is the bad side effect that I say we have to monitor closely, and the way to monitor is to compare two Complete Blood Counts. 

      As for the 62 hour half life... as I wrote before... I took a "sirolimus level" blood test exactly 5 days after I drank 3 mgs rapamycin... the result was 1.51 ng/ml... I took another sirolimus level blood test exactly 5 days later, ie, on day 10.   I expected the result might be two half lives less, that is, half of half of 1.51, which would be about 37.5... but it was .70 ng/ml, so half life in this instance was 5 days, not 2 1/2 days.

      I am not sure what the significance of this is, but maybe half life is 62 hours when there is "a high level" of sirolimus in the blood, and then maybe it gets slower, 125 hours when there is a low level of sirolimus in the blood.   Huh ????

      We can't both be right... or can we ?

      Like 1
      • Van
      • Van
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier   Of course, Dr. Mannick did the clinical trial with elderly people to specifically check for rapa's affect on the immune system.  These are people 75 yo+.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270002631_mTOR_inhibition_improves_immune_function_in_the_elderly

      Like
    • Van Hello Van... Well... you know that if *** I *** had been on team of researchers who did the study, I would have added that they all the subjects would have a before and after Complete Blood Count.  

      I can't understand how they didn't include this most basic of blood tests in order to figure out if rapamycin affected their immune system, since WHITE BLOOD CELLS of various types ARE the immune system.  

      It didn't occur to them to check white blood cells ?  

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier have you read the work of Mikhail Blogosklonny? He seems to have researched rapamycin better than anyone. He is quite accessible on 
      twitter and readily answers questions. Perhaps better than your n of 1

      Like 2
    • Paul Beauchemin    I don't know what question you would like for me to ask Mikhail Blagosklonny?    Which is my n=1, what have I written that makes you think I don't have a large enough sample, of what ?

      I think I am in a different dimension than Mikhail Blagosklonny, and than Dr. Alan Green, because I am not relying on a single magic pill that lengthens lifespan and healthspan. 

      Just drink your magic pill one time every seven days, and wait until you should have gotten old, and hopefully you didn't get so old, yet.   

      You don't have to do exercise, you don't have to eat correctly to keep blood sugar controlled, you don't have to monitor blood sugar, you don't have to try to keep your cells from damage so that they won't divide prematurely so you can keep your telomeres long... It might even help you to lose weight !!!

      All that is necessary is to drink the right dose of your magic rapamycin, and hopefully you will postpone Old Age.  

      That is their version of anti-aging, that is what they write.   Rapamycin is their entire anti-aging program, maybe plus metformin, maybe plus senolytics too.

      I will tell you why metformin works: metformin lowers average blood sugar, and so it "mimics calorie restriction"... Calorie restriction, of course, also lowers average blood sugar. 

      I think there is a good chance that rapamycin alone might work, as planned, and so I have added rapamycin to my own personal anti-aging program...

      I will tell you why I think I am ahead of Dr. Alan Green and Bill Faloon.   I learn from them, but they don't learn from me.   I do what they do, and also what they haven't dreamed of doing yet.

      I also do exercise, I also inject hormones, I also eat correctly, I also take hyperbaric oxygen (usually once every 7 days) and various other anti-aging therapies (eg, Thermage, Fraxell, Botox, etc.) some of which are just superficial (Botox) and others which in fact turn back the clock a bit (Thermage and Fraxell actually cause collagen and skin rejuvenation.)

      I DO believe that rapamycin will postpone Old Age, and I DO believe it is almost magic.

      But I also believe in correct nutrition, exercise, vitamins and minerals, take care of your skin, get rid of parasites, get rid of toxic metals, replace all the hormones that go DOWN with age, and take care not to lose neurons in your brain and all of your body.

      So, of course, if you are ANEMIC you must force up your red blood cells, which you can do with EPO (ErithroPOyetin) but try to find a doctor who will prescribe EPO to you, and you've got a big hurdle to cross.

      Like 2
      • Sam Biller
      • Sam_Biller
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier Curious what you think of the Ketogenic Diet for longevity? What is your dietary protocol? 

      Like
  • Rob,

    What is the name and address of your "open minded" vet? I have been looking for such a vet to administer the Oisin Biotechnology treatment (see https://www.oisinbio.com) that clears senescent cells from aging animals (and hopefully humans). All the vets I have contacted in the Seattle area about treating my two agility-champion Shetland Sheepdogs, 15 and 16 years old, are reluctant to cooperate.

    Like 1
  • Hello,

     

    I just received my Rapamycin, made by Profound Products, called RapaPro.  The bottle has 12 scored tablets in it with directions to take one quarter, one half , or one tablet per week(1.25 mg to 5 mg) as directed by your physician .  Trying just trying  to figure out now which dose to start with , for both myself and my pup!  No Rx required for this product .

    Like 1
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      angie4life You are rolling the dice to get this without a prescription.  Make sure they have an actual physical location.  Probably get their stuff from China - not necessarily bad, but not necessarily good either...  See above for dog dosage (read all as I was off by 10x at first).  I started at 3 mg 1x/week.  Now at 6mg where I expect to remain (per Dr. Green).  Just had one of my best blood tests ever.  Almost everything was in range and I am 67.

      Like 1
    • Rob8311 I am interested to know the results of your blood tests.  Which test in particular came out "best" than ever ?  

      In particular, look at "hematocrit" and "hemoglobin" and if you can compare with previous blood tests, see if they are lower now than before.  

      Rapamycin lowers hematocrit and hemoglobin.  (Hematocrit means the percent of your blood that is red blood cells... red blood cells carry hemoglobin, and hemoglobin carries OXYGEN... which is crucial for you to feel well.)

      The blood test you that you should get is "sirolimus level"...  You probably can get this test done in a hospital blood lab.   Take your dose (6 mgs) and test "sirolimus level" exactly 2 hours after your dose (which is the high point... transplant patients test at the low point...)   

      My opinion is that 6 mgs 1 time per week, as per Doctor Green, is too high, even for Dr. Green... You should not want to have your high point much higher than the range of the low point of transplant patients, which is 5 ng/ml to 20 ng/ml.

      In any case, I am just guessing... but I never guess wrong.   Take the "sirolimus level" blood test and I predict that you will find it is higher than the low point of transplant patients (ie, it will be higher than 20 ng/ml)

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier I think half-life of 62 hours plays a big part in side effects. Someone taking this daily will build up higher levels in their blood than someone taking weekly. 

      Like
    • Paul Beauchemin Hello Paul... I took THREE "sirolimus level" blood tests... the first was exactly 2 HOURS AFTER I took 5 mgs rapamycin.   The result was 40.09 ng/ml  and the range for transplant patients is 20 ng/ml - 5 ng/ml.  

      So it doesn't matter what the half life is, somebody taking it daily will build up higher levels than somebody taking it weekly, but in any case the levels of transplant patients is 20 ng/ml to 5 ng/ml.   I don't want to have my sirolimus levels much higher than theirs, not even for a day or two.

      So I took another "sirolimus level" blood test, exactly 5 DAYS after I drank 3 mgs. rapamycin.  My result was 1.51 ng/ml which means I probably started the 5 days about 25 ng/ml and ended 5 days at 1.51 ng/ml... Which to me, seems good enough for me, for a starting dose for me.   If after a few months I do not have a drop in red blood cells or in white blood cells, then maybe I would consider 5 mgs per week.

      And then I took a third "sirolimus level" blood test 10 DAYS AFTER I had taken 3 mgs, to see if it can still be detected in my blood.   If the half life is 62 hours, then from day 5 to day 10 is two half lifes... so I predicted my result would be 1.51 divided by half divided by half, or about 37.5   

      WRONG... the result was .70 ng/ml.   So the half life was in fact 5 days, not 2 and a half days.

      NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY WHICH IS THE BEST DOSE.   We are all following Dr. Alan Green, or Bill Faloon.   But they are guessing too.  And there is no reason why their guess is better than yours, or than mine.   My guess is based on three blood test results, and a Complete Blood Count which says I have to raise my white blood cells before I raise to 5 mgs.

      So I consider that my 40 ng/ml is too high, and Dr. Green's 6 mgs is probably higher (after 2 hours) than 40, so it is even worse.  

      In any case, what we don't want is to have a drop in red blood cells, or a drop in white blood cells.  Dr. Green's blood tests as shown on his page show that he is "anemic"... He calls it "mild anemia" but I call it "dangerously low anemia" and so I think his 6 mgs per week is too much for him.  

      But I am not a doctor, so don't listen to me.

      Like 1
      • Van
      • Van
      • 5 mths ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier   Dr. Green is now taking 12 mg rapa a week.  One thing to remember:  the older you are, the stronger the TOR signal that has to be blocked, so it takes a higher dose to accomplish the same thing as when you are younger.  That is why it is critical that everyone should state there age.

      https://roguehealthandfitness.com/rapamycin-anti-aging-medicine-an-update-with-alan-s-green-m-d/

      See Question 2.

      Like 2
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Thimineur Ellis Toussier 

      Excellent post. Thanks for sharing your data. 

      Like
    • Van   With all due respect to Dr. Green... He is mistaken to take 12 mgs rapamycin per week.   If I got 40 ng/ml two hours after I drank 5 mgs of rapamycin, I guarantee that he is starting the week at way over 100 ng/ml, and the end of the 7 days he is probably too high also.   And... my blood test 10 days after 3 mgs rapamycin shows that it was still detectable 10 days after 3 mgs... I guarantee that after 12 mgs after 7 days will not only be detectable, it will be quite high... so when he adds another 12 mgs, he will start the 7 days with even higher than the first week he took 12 mgs, it is added to what was left.

      I have never read anywhere that Dr. Green has taken a "sirolimus level" blood test, so maybe he never has.   He has taken HbA1c, and "insulin" but he has never mentioned "sirolimus level"   So if he never has taken a sirolimus level, then I am more expert on rapamycin than he is, even if he is a doctor.

      And I am also more expert about human growth hormone, than Dr. Green, even if he is a doctor because he speaks with forked tongue about HGH.   I have taken a dose of HGH almost every day without fail since 1998, and I have sold it and received feedback from thousands of persons around the world, and not one single case of cancer or all the other diseases that Dr. Green mentions, never having taken a single dose of HGH in his life.   (Judging by his photograph, it would be of great benefit to him.)

      And I am also more expert about ANEMIA than Dr. Green, even if he is a doctor.   He says he has "mild anemia" and I say he doesn't have any idea how terrible is "mild anemia" (and his anemia is not "mild," it is quite serious.)  

      If you ask this self-made expert, don't do what Dr. Green does.   Do what I tell you to do:   Take a Complete Blood Count, and take 3 mgs every 5 or 6 or 7 days (take your pick) and after 20 doses, take a Complete Blood Count again, and then decide if you go up to 5 mgs.  or maybe suspend for a few months.  

      And if your Complete Blood Count shows that your red blood cells have dropped, or your white blood cells have dropped, then you have to put them back UP again before you continue with rapamycin.  

      Like 2
    • Ellis Toussier , I have a couple of comments. First, I think it unwise for you to slag Dr. Green. As you say, he is a physician and has years of medical training and a lifetime of experience in his profession, you...do not. He... has several years of experience prescribing rapamycin and other medications and following their blood-work... you...do not.

      Second, although I am far from an expert on this, peak levels of sirolimus seem to be unimportant in terms of side-effects. It's the trough levels that matter. If you have real evidence to the contrary (as opposed to opinion based on self-experimentation), please share it.

      Third, I went to Dr. Green's site. He lists his blood results as you stated.  (see photo). I fail to see any important change in his hemoglobin or hematocrit with rapamycin therapy over 18 months of rapamycin therapy. There was a brief , unimportant drop that has recovered. I cannot find any update that supports your assertions about desperation. If I missed it, please take a screenshot and post it.

      Fourth I am also a physician, and hemoglobin levels like Dr. Green's are incredibly common in older men... and likely are a result in natural declines in testosterone, systemic inflammation, Erythropoietin deficiency (related to renal function) as well as other factors. As a result, many propose age (as well as sex-related) normal values. The WHO definition for anemia is ,13g/dl in men (of any age)... and "unexplained anemia" in the elderly incredibly common. The age -related decline in androgen production can result in 1gm/dl drops in hgb. Thus, despite his age, Dr. Green's (normal) hemoglobin would be similar to 14gm/dl in a younger man. Normal. You may wish to review this article for more information. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2586804/

      Lastly, I too think it's wise to have a  trough level checked (as I have done) and to do so after any dose change. That said, from the published studies, the actual risk of high levels with a once weekly dose of 5 mg is very low.... but not zero. I agree with Mikhail  Blagosklonny, that taking rapamcin, metformin, or other medications without medical supervision is unwise... but respect the individual decisions of those who decide otherwise. They run all of the risks and derive all of the benefits (if any).

      This area of therapy has many unknowns, is fraught with uncertainty and is often based on extrapolations from animal studies. As a result, we often must make decisions based on limited data... and recognize the potential for error. and the harm that can result.  Dogma has no place here.

      Arrogance is not an attractive attribute, and I encourage you to review the tone of your posts to see if this applies. I may have misinterpreted... as nuance is lost in text.

      Like 2
      • recortes
      • recortes
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier  in what form do you take HGH?. Is there a good way to take it in a non-inyectable form?.

      Like
    • recortes authentic human growth hormone MUST BE injectable, or else IT IS NOT REALLY AUTHENTIC HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE.   Human growth hormone is 191 amino acids long.  If you drink it, or spray it, or in a powder or gel, it is NOT human growth hormone.  

      Why do you want to take it in a non-injectable form ?   Are you SCARED of an "injection"?   IT DOES NOT HURT, FROM 1 TO 10, IT HURTS ZERO.   There is no good reason why you should be concerned that it is injectable.   In any case, if it is NOT injectable, you can be sure it is NOT authentic human growth hormone, it doesn't matter if a "doctor" recommends an amino acid or a spray or a gel, if Ellis Toussier says it is not authentic, it is not authentic.

      Look up my name "Ellis Toussier" on Google, and you will find many of my pages, and you will find how to write to me. If you write to me, please write to me FROM protonmail.com which is encrypted e-mail. My Hotmail was broken into in 2010, and the Bad Guys were reading my e-mail which caused me HUGE problems. So I only want to discuss growth hormone by encrypted e-mail.

      Like
    • Steve Roedde  

      First... I am not "slagging" Dr. Green.  I congratulate him for teaching us, including me, a lot about rapamycin.  However, even if he is a physician, I have taken three "sirolimus level" blood tests, and I don't see where he has taken one, and I don't see where he has shown a complete blood count, before and after.

      Second.  It does not matter if "anemia" is common among Old Men.  I am 74 years "old" so I am an Old Man too.   Being old does not make anemia acceptable.  Since he has anemia, he is suffering from a lack of oxygen in his body.  And since he is suffering from a lack of oxygen in his body, it is harming him in many ways, number one of which is it is killing neurons in his brain and all over his body.  It does not matter if anemia is incredibly common in older men, what matters is that it is extremely bad for his health, he will be senile or dead within ten years.   And now I shocked you, but I am only stating a fact.

      Most doctors (including you) don't care much about anemia because it does not "hurt" and because it is "incredibly common in older men."   And so, they leave it, they don't bother to fix it.  It can be fixed easily with erithropoyetin.   I am not a medical doctor, but I have taught hundreds or thousands of medical doctors about anemia and about erithropoyetin. 

      See my page: http://www.rajeun.net/hb.html

      I wrote that page almost 20 years ago.  So don't listen to me because I am not a doctor if you don't want to, but I know more about anemia than Dr. Green, and apparently more than you, so learn from me.  I know exactly what anemia does, I know exactly how Dr. Green must feel, (difficult to breath, easy to tire, forgetful, etc.)  and I know exactly how to fix it.

      I have helped hundreds of persons with anemia in my life, even if I am not a "medical doctor".    If I had been alive in the times of Hippocrates and Galen, I would have been regarded as a "doctor" not only because I would teach them about anemia, I would have also taught them about diabetes, about blood glucose, and about insulin.   

      I'm not bragging, I am just stating a fact.

      It does not matter what is the cause of his anemia.  What matters is what his anemia causes in his body.  Anemia causes other degenerative disease, because the bottom line is that it is a LACK OF OXYGEN.  And oxygen is essential to every cell in his body.

      For your information, MY hematocrit is about 53% and hemoglobin about 17+%.   And I have had it there, artificially if you wish, for more than 20 years.   I also have had nearly 200 sessions of hyperbaric oxygen, 100% oxygen at 1.7 atm for 60 to 90 minutes each session.   This means that I have about 40% more oxygen running through my body right now than Dr. Green.  And if I have any neurons that are damaged, I hope that my next hyperbaric oxygen session will help to recover it.

      Do you think I feel better than he does?   I guarantee, I not only FEEL better, I also am having LESS DAMAGE to neurons in my brain and all over my body than he is having.

      I agree that his anemia might be due to a decline in testosterone, but it doesn't matter what is the CAUSE.  What matters is that it exists, what it does.  It is causing damage in his body, and in his brain.  And 6 mgs rapamycin for four years has probably caused his red blood cell count to drop, because WE KNOW that this is one of the undesireable side effects of rapamycin.

      Dr. Green is proud that he has lost 10 pounds since he increased his dose to 12 mgs.   I say, that is a very bad sign.  He lost 10 pounds, a lot of it is muscle.  I am also an expert on sarcopenia.  (an "expert" is somebody who can talk to an audience about a single topic for 30 minutes, and nobody will get up because they are bored.) 

      He is evaporating.   I am sorry to be so blunt.

      I don't want the high levels of rapamycin, neither the high nor the trough levels to be as high or higher than transplant patients because WE KNOW that the effect on transplant patients is to lower the immune system.   

      So, I am shocked that Dr. Green DOUBLED HIS DOSE of rapamycin from 6 mgs which I KNOW is probably too high, (because I tested "sirolimus level" 2 hours after 5 mgs and the result was 40 ng/ml which is too high) he doubled it to 12 mgs.  

      It can only be that he is feeling very weak because of the lack of oxygen in his blood, and he is desperately seeking a solution.   (I wrote to him to help him... he never answered)

      You say that there was a brief, unimportant, drop of hemoglobin which has recovered.  It was not brief, and it was not unimportant.  His hematocrit dropped from 39% to 36%.   That was about a 10% LESS red blood cells.  His hemoglobin dropped to 12%, which is 25% LESS than what is average in a healthy 50 year old male.  

      So it was not unimportant, it was very important.  And it has not really recovered.   I want to see what a Complete Blood Count shows, in January 2020.  

      I will bet that his white blood cells are very low, too.  

      And that was with 6 mgs rapamycin every 7 days.  12 mgs will make it worse.   It doesn't matter if I am not a doctor, I know what I am saying.  

      The data shown on Dr. Green's page goes only to March, 2018.    We are in January, 2020 now.   Dr. Green increased his dose of rapamycin from 6 mgs to 12 mgs, now.   I will guess that his hematocrit has dropped from what it was in March, 2018, and this is why he doubled his dose.   I will bet that his hematocrit is 36% or less, and I will bet that he is suffering from a lack of oxygen.

      Excuse me, in spite of all Dr. Green's experience with rapamycin, he has never prescribed 12 mgs to any of his 350 patients.   So I will say point blank, he is mistaken to double his dose, and I will say that it is bad for him.   I am not a doctor, and he is a doctor, and you are a doctor, but he is mistaken.  And if you insist that he is right because he is a doctor and you are a doctor and I am not a doctor, then you are also mistaken.  And I think I am not mistaken.  

      It is a mistake to take 12 mgs of rapamycin, because it will lower his immune system, which is already low, and it will worsen his anemia, which is already very bad.

      Please excuse me if I sound arrogant, or if I seem to be boasting.  I wish I could help Dr. Green, but it is too late for me to help him.  He is a doctor, and I am not, and doctors don't listen to somebody who is not a doctor.

      So, better, I keep quiet.   Do what you like.  But don't follow Dr. Green with 12 mgs. per week because you will harm yourself.

      Like 3
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier Thanks much for the great info Ellis! Particularly useful for me since my GI doc called yesterday to let me know my hemoglobin was low at 12.9% (not on rapamycin anymore, positive cologuard test, likely need my second colonoscopy, age 75). Following Dr. Green and wanting to get back on a safe dose of rapamycin but not sure I want to order more from Wind Pharm. in India where I got my first two batches. 

      Like
    • Dennis Just following along on the back and forth and thought my two cents might be useful for some people. It is not specific to your last entry but simply a way to enter.

      Longevity strategies and gambling have similar strategy. More insider info encourages larger  bets. The card counter in blackjack (personal experience) spends hours at a table waiting to identify the rare 6 deck shoe with a skewed distribution of high cards versus low. The vast majority of the time there is even distribution. Once identified, the skew becomes insider info and leads to greater probability of large wins with larger bets.


      We have so much insider information with rapamycin. Scientists all over the world working independently have conducted thousands of scientifically valid experiments on every conceivable disease. Sick patients with malignancy, heart stents, and kidney transplants have used the drug safely for decades. Pharmacokinetics of rapamycin are well known. Dosage of 0.12 mg/kg in average males (9mg) result in peak concentration of 45 ng/ml. Seven days later levels will be less than 2ng/ml. A 55kg teen liver transplant patient tried to OD taking 103mg (1.85mg/kg) and had level of 126ng/ml at 24 hrs and 15ng/ml at 7 days. It might be interesting for some people to report on a rapa levels but kinetics are known "insider info" already allowing us to basically know our levels without measurement.


      Now with this insider info normal people are placing their own personal bets on longevity benefits. By virtue of profession, some of us (Dr. Green, myself, etc) have more insider info in that we have treated patients and evaluated dose dependent safety and responses. I have personally done this before by making emperic observations on a certain method of intracranial neurostimulation leading to a U.S. Patent and sale of the method to a major biotech company. It seems with rapamycin, more insider information becomes public every week via rigorous scientific study. 


      My observations on this forum indicate most longevity gamblers are placing small bets with rapamycin and express fear of losing. Analysis of studies and emperic observations of patients coupled with personal experience suggest larger bets are likely necessary for longevity benefit.  The risk of losing appears acceptable as all adverse effects are reversable and serial labs and personal subjective (and objective) information provides further inside info to adjust bets accordingly. 


      It appears that Dr. Green feels comfortable adjusting his bet. I've also done that but chose a slight hedge by a cycling technique of higher (0.18mg/kg/wk) to lower (0.08mg/kg/wk) over specified time periods. I've completed one year of a lower cycle from higher (0.10 mg/kg/wk) to lower (0.04 mg/kg/wk). I've matched my regimen to about 50 other human beings whom I treat and another 10 family members and close friends. The higher regimen has been initiated in about 10 people aside from myself. Emperic observations and laboratory values indicate safety has been met in the lower cycle (stable blood counts, glucose, AIC, cholesterol) and that the higher dose levels in the cycle appears more beneficial (subjective observation). In addition, psychometric evaluation of mood and perception of physical function trends toward improvement moreso at the higher dose of this cycle. 


      At this point I choose to not place any bets with HGH as there is no clear insider info to make this any different than going "all in" with a pair of deuces. With rapamycin I think it is comparable to "all in" with a pair of queens or kings. As a physician and a longevity gambler, I don't see the point of blood doping. Risk of thrombotic events or cardiomyopathy makes it a possible "lose everything" scenario. Anyway, I'm not anywhere close to a point I need an oxygen carrying edge to win the Tour de France.


      We all have our own appetite for risk. Forums such as this can provide insider info to allow people to ajdust their own longevity bets accordingly. If each of us can be systematic in our dosing of rapamycin and careful in our observations, sharing of that info can lead to trend identification and improvement in "optimal" dose development. I'll be able to share info on the higher cycle dosing in 6-12 months. Wishing everyone good luck and good health.

      Like 8
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Thimineur great post. Appreciate the experienced, knowledgeable information.  Where are you getting your Rapamycin? Local pharmacy or online?  I am a fellow physician just starting down this road. Thanks.

      Like
    • Karl For myself and anyone who is "self pay" the source is Biocon "Sirolimus" through online Canadian Pharmacy. Price $349 per 100 1mg tabs. For patients who go through insurance it is Pfizer Rapamune. It seems some of the Medicare D plans cover it, at least for now. Once I started the higher cycling regimen, I started using grapefruit juice to impair intestinal P450 and spike absorption 3 fold (half life is unnaffected). It becomes to expensive for many people otherwise and I always do myself what I tell my patients to do. I have to accept that there is a known variability of grapefruit juice effect on sirolimus absorption of 250%-350% so the actual dose may be a little lower or higher and I accept this small risk (again, well studied insider info). Grapefruit juice protocol is one fresh squeezed large fruit about 8 hours prior to dose (night before) and one large fresh squeezed grapefruit morning of with rapamycin taken 30 minutes later. Assume an average 300% increased absorption to determine the proper dose (1/3 of the mg/kg/wk without juice). So far so good.

      Like 5
    • Mark Thimineur 

      Great post with great analogy to gambling. I was wondering if you could elaborate in more detail on what you perceive the greater benefits are at the higher doses?

       Thanks 

      Like
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier I have no interest in starting a long online argument, so I’m not going to. I would just ask that you be a bit more open minded. You chosen a point of view that is only one way to look at this and there are other points of view with just as many facts to back them up.

      Like 1
    • John Mcgough Link to prior post which is responsive in regards to my patients: https://forum.age-reversal.net/t/h4s991?r=80v57h

      Personal observations: Improvements: Mood, motivation, mental stamina, flexibility, speed of gait, balance, neuropathic pain from disc herniation, musculoskelatel pain, easier to maintain weight without fasting.

      Realize these are subjective perceptions. However, patients and non-patients on a regimen describe similar subjective perceptions which anchor these as as likely drug effect. Lower doses provide less and higher doses more further anchoring these observations as drug effect. 

      Several patients have opted to treat their canine pets at 0.08mg/kg dosed twice weekly. The canines behave like younger dogs being more playful and physical than prior. This also serves to anchor what we are seeing in ourselves as likely drug effect.

      Optimal dose unclear. Higher rodent doses lead to longer lifespan increases while lower lead to much lower, and less impressive, change. Risk seems acceptable (to me) with lower level cycle dose as described above with more robust benefits on the higher side (0.10mg/kg/wk) as opposed to lower (0.04mg/kg/wk) while laboratory results remained within normal and little changed. 

      Realize that all people do not experience all benefits (at least at the described doses) It appears that the younger and more "normal" individuals percieve less subjective effects. Interesting that, in these types of patients, a spouse often interjects and tells me they are more energetic or somehow "happier"

      I take it all in and learn from them (and myself). Higher cycle doses as described above may tell me more.

      Like 2
    • Mark Thimineur thanks for all that great feedback and I will consider following your protocol after I see the results of  doing 5 mg weekly. I chose 5 mg because  the Mannick   study showed that it improved lymphocytes.

      A year and a half ago I had a blood test which showed my lymphocytes were below the range. CD4 was around 400. Through experimentation I discovered if I did a fast mimicking diet pioneered by Victor Longo my lymphocytes increased into the bottom of the range. When  I stopped doing the fast mimicking diet for four months my lymphocytes crash to 325 CD4.

      After two months of going back on the fast mimicking diet they improve to 500. Which means over the last 18 months I have done the fast mimicking diet 14 times. I happen on to rapamycin hoping this would raise my lymphocytes and I can stop doing the fast mimicking diet which is very boring and its not  something I look forward to doing every month.

      interestingly when I do the fast mimicking diet my neuropathic tingling in my hands goes away on the second day and my weight goes from 170 to 161 by the fifth day.

      taking rapamycin 5mg  I noticed fairly quickly my tingling  improved like I was fasting and my weight stays at around 164 pounds. I also feel similar to when I am fasting. I thought I would add this observation since I’m wondering if my body is more sensitive or is it my lifestyle being I am super active and health conscious?

      also something to consider is that Longo reports that after the five day fast your body goes through a refeeding period for a couple days In which a lot of healing and new stem cells are produced and I’m wondering if this happens with rapamycin when the trough level is lower? 
      Please keep us informed how the new cycling works out.

      Like 1
    • Karl Karl, please do start a long online argument.   That's what this forum is for, to learn from each other.  

      What exactly would you like me to be more open minded about ?   Anemia ?   What other point of view do you have about anemia, than the one I have, which is that anemia causes senility?  

      And that Dr. Alan Green has anemia, which he has not treated properly because he has probably been told that it is quite normal?  

      Please Karl, you are a doctor and I am not.  So I would like very much to learn what have I been missing?  What am I mistaken about?

      Like 1
    • Mark Thimineur do you cycle every week meaning one week the higher dose and the next week the lower dose or do you use a longer interval? Thank you

      Like 1
    • John Mcgough 3 weeks straight on each dose change. I am now cycling through 3 different doses (high, medium, low) each for 3 weeks.

      Like 1
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier I ask you be a bit more open minded about anemia and not be so rigid on the numbers. Anemia does not cause senility. They just happen together. Don’t confuse correlation with causation.

      why would Dr Green’s slightly below normal hgb be bad when that number would be considered normal for an athlete or a woman?

      if lower oxygen carrying capacity is bad, why are people living at altitude in Colorado generally healthier?

      higher hgb levels make the blood more viscous and can lead to vascular stress.
       

      I’m not saying you are wrong, just that medicine is not an exact science.

      Like 1
    • Ellis Toussier since you passed up my suggestion to engage with Mikhail Blogoslonny on Twitter, I queried his thinking on HGH. Continuously dosing HGH is akin to dosing with hormones or nutrients. His theory https://www.aging-us.com/article/100411/text

      he speculated that continuous HGH stimulates the mTor pathway which leads to aging. 

      Like 2
    • Karl  RE: Anemia, and my rigidity on the numbers.

      Karl, let us suppose you are inside a car, with the windows closed, and we suck out 20% of the oxygen in the car (ie, 36% vs. 45%...)   Now you sit in a car with the windows closed, and you breathe 20% less oxygen for 10 years.  

      Ten years later, you walk out of the car... How do you think you feel?   You feel DIZZY.  Why do you feel dizzy?   Because you have LOST NEURONS...

      You lost neurons in your legs and in your brain too.  That is why anemia and senility go together.  I say that anemia caused senility.  You say they go together.  Fine.  And high hematocrit and intelligence also go together.

      After perhaps 10 years with anemia, you THINK more slowly, because you are on the road to senility, (unless you are already senile.)

      "They just happen to go together" ???!!!   That is correct.  Every cell in your body requires WATER and NUTRIENTS and OXYGEN.   If you have 20% less oxygen running through your blood than "an average healthy person" you can bet that in ten years of 20% less oxygen you have LOST NEURONS.

      Dr. Green's hematocrit (36% in 2018, probably less today because anemia does not go UP by itself, unless he has taken EPO or Testosterone, none of which he has mentioned) and 12% hemoglobin is NOT SLIGHTLY BELOW NORMAL.   It is 20% below normal, which is huge.   I have had feedback from persons with 39% hematocrit, and they feel like they are drowning.   Gasping for air.  And when they got their hematocrit to 45%, they were much healthier.

      People living at altitude in Colorado generally have hematocrit higher than 45%... (I live in Mexico City, which is higher than Denver)  Persons living in Mexico City have hematocrit about 2 points higher than persons living at sea level.  And people living in La Paz, Bolivia, have hematocrit in upper 50's.

      And yes, we feel better when we go down to sea level because we have higher hematocrit which gives us a bit more oxygen in our veins.  It takes several months for 47% to drop to 45% hematocrit.   (And it takes about 2 weeks for somebody from sea level to raise hematocrit to get well adjusted to Mexico City, or Bogota, Colombia, or La Paz, Bolivia.)

      Yes, higher hematocrit can perhaps cause thicker blood, but how high is high?   Can  Dr. Alan Green put his anemic blood UP from 36% to 37% without danger?  How about from 37% to 40%?   How about 40% to 43%?   How about 43% to 45%?  

      Would you say I am in danger of a heart attack because my hematocrit has been between 50% and 59% for nearly 20 years?   The entire city of La Paz, Bolivia has hematocrit between 55% and 60%.

      In any case, Dr. Alan Green would have to take that decision himself, because he is age 76, in my opinion he is weak and struggling with anemia, and if he should take Erithropoyetin, and kick the bucket, there would be many doctors who would blame me for causing his death.   (I hope he will live many more years, in good health.  But he is not in good health, right now.)

      But this is like a person who has had extreme high blood sugar for many years, if I tell that person to take insulin to get his blood sugar down, and that person goes blind, there would be many doctors who would say that INSULIN caused him to go blind, and my advice was mistaken, when the fact is that many years of extreme high blood sugar and bad medical advice from his doctors (who should have put him on insulin many years ago) is the true reason that they lost their eyesight (and probably also their kidneys, and brain neurons too.)

      See what some persons have written to tell me how they felt, after they raised their anemia to better levels:

      http://www.rajeun.net/epofaq.html

      - Ellis Toussier

      Like
    • Paul Beauchemin 

      Re: Blagosklonny's specultion on HGH

      Paul, I really don't care what somebody, even a great doctor who has taught me a lot about rapamycin, thinks about HGH, since he has never injected ONE DOSE of HGH in his life.   And I have injected a double dose 2 iu or more (most doctors prescribe 1 iu to their patients, if they prescribe HGH at all...) almost every single day since June, 1998, that is almost 22 years.  

      So... he knows more than I do about rapamycin, but he doesn't know more than I do about growth hormone.   Not only have I injected it into myself, I have sold it to thousands of persons for 22 years, and I have gotten feedback from the persons that I have sold it to, and also from thousands of persons who I didn't sell it to.   Doctors call me from many countries, and they ask my opinion about what dose to give to their patients.   Doctors have come to Mexico to buy growth hormone from me (eg, Humatrope, Saizen, Serostim, etc.) and to learn more about growth hormone from me.

      So, I am not going to discuss growth hormone with somebody who is AGAINST the use of growth hormone, and who theorizes whatever he wants to theorize about how BAD growth hormone is, when I know how great growth hormone is.

      About 20 years ago, there were many doctors who were praising growth hormone. 

      Then Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire hit 70 and 71 HOME RUNS in the same year and smashed Babe Ruth's Homerun Record.   A National Emergency!   Suddenly, growth hormone became a BAD thing.   Growth hormone had made their muscles and their bones and their nervous system all coordinate and work better together.  So they could hit the ball further, and they could run faster, in spite of their age.  

      And so that was considered to be "cheating"...

      Why is it "cheating" to keep your body from falling apart, if you can keep it from falling apart?   I dunno.   But the U.S.  FDA cracked down on growth hormone and on doctors who prescribe growth hormone.   And so, then, "doctors" started to recommend growth hormone secretagogues, which they say are "less painful" and "more natural" and "less risky" and all kinds of reasons why "sermorelin" is better and "safer" than growth hormone, which has no side effects in physiological doses.

      I am tired of arguing with Jay Olshansky or Thomas Perls or others who spread fake news.   And I don't want to argue with Mikhail Blagosklonny, who speaks badly about growth hormone, and who I think knows less about growth hormone than I do.

      But he is a "Doctor" and I am not a doctor, so he will want to Lord it over me.  

      I will continue to use growth hormone, no matter what Jay Olshansky or Blagosklonny or anybody says he thinks about growth hormone...

      Blagosklonny "speculated" one way, and I speculate another.  

      I have never heard of a BAD side effect caused by growth hormone in 22 years, and I have heard of many many many good benefits.

      So I speculate that growth hormone (and EPO, and insulin, and testosterone) has already postponed aging for me.  

      So, don't take growth hormone, now that Blagosklonny has told you it is bad for you. 

      I say rapamycin is probably good, and I say growth hormone is definitely good.

      You can choose to believe somebody (Blagosklonny or Dr. Alan Green) who I say does not know about growth hormone.  Or you can decide to experiment with growth hormone if you want to believe somebody (ME) who says he knows a little more about growth hormone than Blagosklonny.   

      After ONE dose of growth hormone, an athlete told me he broke his own record record.   After ONE dose of growth hormone, a gymnast told me he had done "the cross" for the first time in his life.

      And after about 7000 double doses, I have no pain in my 74 year old body, and I think I have aged more slowly. 

      Ellis Toussier

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier I don't think Blagosklonny would say he is an expert on Rapamycin so much as an expert on mTOR. He has postulated and published a theory that aging is driven by mTOR not shutting down after we need it for growth.

      No doubt HGH makes us stronger and promotes growth as does food.  So will getting HGH for decades longer than our body needs it for growth cause us to age?  Time will tell. At least Blagosklonny has published scientific papers to document his research.

      I've looked at your website and cannot find links to any papers you have published. Maybe you think that you will convince people with anecdotes?

      If your data is as good as you indicate, publish it in scientific journals. You don't have to be a "doctor" to publish papers, anyone can. Otherwise, you will not be taken seriously.

      Like 1
    • Ellis Toussier For Baseball fans:

      1998 Mark Mcguire total home runs - 70

      1998 Sammy Sosa total home runs  - 66

      PED - Anabolic steroids (proven and admitted)

      2001 Barry Bonds Home run total - 73

      PED - Probably anabolic steroids (not proven, not admitted)

       

      For Longevity

      Regarding HGB and HCT: both low (anemic) and high (polycythemic) levels are associated with an increased risk of dementia. Actual causation undetermined. July 31, 2019, issue of Neurology

      HGH: problem(s) #1- "Current consensus of medical professional organizations and governmental regulatory agencies is that, while adult GHD is a valid indication for GH replacement therapy, old age without diagnosable somatotropic axis pathology is not [23]. Thus, until further large, well-designed studies are conducted, prescribing GH to endocrinologically-normal middle aged or elderly individuals for the purpose of delaying or reversing aging is generally considered futile, unethical, and, in the United States, also illegal" Bartke A. Growth Hormone and Aging: Updated Review. World J Mens Health. 2019;37(1):19–30. doi:10.5534/wjmh.180018

      Problem(s) #2- "Absence of GH signals due to mutations affecting anterior pituitary development, GH secretion, or GH receptors produces an impressive extension of longevity in laboratory mice. Extension of healthspan in these animals and analysis of survival curves suggest that in the absence of GH, aging is slowed down or delayed. The corresponding endocrine syndromes in the human have no consistent impact on longevity, but are associated with remarkable protection from age-related disease. Moreover, survival to extremely old age has been associated with reduced somatotropic (GH and insulin-like growth factor-1) signaling in women and men. In both humans and mice, elevation of GH levels into the supranormal (pathological) range is associated with increased disease risks and reduced life expectancy likely representing acceleration of aging."Bartke A. Growth Hormone and Aging: Updated Review. World J Mens Health. 2019;37(1):19–30. doi:10.5534/wjmh.180018

      Sorry to say I Don't think either is a good bet for my longevity gamble (or medical license) at this point. Wish you the best

      Like 2
    • Mark Thimineur 

      Re: Current consensus of medical professional organizations and governmental regulatory agencies...

      I am fortunate that I live in Mexico, and the regulatory agencies in Mexico do not forbid me, and nobody tells me that it is "unethical" to use a hormone that is natural to the human body and is considered to be the master hormone of the human body.  

      I am 74 years "old" and at my age growth hormone is "deficient" in my body.

      When I began to take growth hormone, in June, 1998, we knew that growth hormone goes DOWN with age, and the big question that they asked in those days was: does growth hormone go DOWN with Old Age, or do we grow old BECAUSE growth hormone goes DOWN because we are Old?   Or do we become Old because growth hormone went down?   In other words, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

      I was in close touch with many doctors (Dr. Ward Dean, Dr. Ronald Klatz, Dr. Alan Rothenberg, Dr. Elmer Cranton, Dr. James Hughes, etc.) who were all of the opinion that if we replace growth hormone, it would do in our aging bodies what it used to do when we were 25 years old.   They are all members of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, which has about 25,000 doctors affiliated.  (I am sure that if you ever would go to a convention of A4M, nobody there, except maybe you, would think it is "unethical" to try to reverse or slow down aging with growth hormone.)

      Which was: HGH would repair broken bones faster, it would heal burns faster... it would lower body fat and increase muscle... it would cause the circulatory system to grow more... it would strengthen the immune system... it would make nails and hair grow thicker... it would prevent hair from falling out in men (maybe because it would cause circulatory system to get to the roots of hair follicles...) etc. etc. etc.   There are A LOT of good things that growth hormone would do, since it is the master hormone, the pituitary gland is right in the center of our brain, and the brain is the boss that decides when the pituitary gland releases growth hormone. 

      Maybe it is a coincidence that the brain decides not to release as much growth hormone, or maybe it was part of the plan to conserve food for the younger persons. 

      Whatever... I saw my face in a mirror, I read Dr. Daniel Rudman's experiment with growth hormone on Old Men (age 60 t0 85 (??))

      https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199007053230101

      and I decided by myself that I was going to take growth hormone myself, and that I was NEVER GOING TO STOP, as long as I would not have a BAD SIDE EFFECT.   And so, I finally found "growth hormone" (Humatrope, Eli Lilly) in a pharmacy and I began to inject Humatrope, following the guidelines of Daniel Rudman's experiment.

      22 years later, I am still waiting for a Bad Side Effect to happen.

      So I am not going to stop taking growth hormone.   The world needs to find out if growth hormone is GOOD, as I say it is, or BAD as some countries' regulatory agencies say it is.  As I said, I am in Mexico, and I am not forbidden to take growth hormone.

      So... I put together my 8 point anti-aging program, based on the principles of "Risk Management" which I had learned as an insurance agent.   What happens to us as we grow older, and how can I stop or slow down or reverse the various "signs of aging"???

      (skin get thinner and dryer, and so it wrinkles... we gain fat, we lose muscle... our immune system gets weaker... our bones lose minerals so we get osteoporosis... etc.)

      The single most important anti-aging "therapy" I decided had to be the food that we eat.  The correct diet. 

      And so for a long time I was following the "experts" who had put together the atrocious U.S.D.A. Food Guide Pyramid.   I didn't know it was so terrible, until I bought a $75 dollar blood glucose meter, and I got confused to see that the food guide pyramid was schizophrenic:  CARBOHYDRATES is what we should EAT THE MOST (60% calories should come from spaghetti, bread, potatoes, MUFFINS, cereals, etc.) and SUGAR (which is 100% carbohydrates) is what we should EAT THE LEAST.

      Dr. Roy Walford wrote "Fewer calories is always better than more calories, for the same amount of nutrients" 

      But I tested myself with the blood glucose meter, and I modified Dr. Walford's advice a little bit.  I said "Fewer calories is always better than more calories for the same amount of nutrients, but the food we choose to eat must also keep your blood sugar low."

      And another point of my eight point anti-aging program was something like "replace all hormones that go DOWN with age... and lower hormones that go UP with age."

      So it is a part of my personal anti-aging program.  If you believe that I am "unethical" to take and to teach doctors and patients to replace growth hormone and other hormones in their body that go down with age, I think it is more unethical to sell cigarrettes and alcohol and bad drugs, and I don't touch anything that I think is truly bad for good health.   I have no regrets to help the hundreds of thousands of persons that I have helped in 22 years to stay in ultra good health.

      And if you think that taking rapamycin alone is going to help you to live a longer and healthier life, why is that not "unethical" too?   

      In any case, I think you are putting all your eggs (rapamycin) in one basket, and I am putting all of my eggs in 9 baskets now.   (the 8 that I put into my anti-aging program in 1998, and now rapamycin which I added to my anti aging program, in 2019.)   

      Good luck to everyone, I hope that with rapamycin and metformin you will all live to 150.  

      I prefer rapamycin + insulin...  but you might consider taking insulin when I am not a diabetic, you might consider that to be "unethical" too.

      I will soon leave this board.   I do not like to be where doctors think that what I do is unethical.   Good luck to everyone, I am almost out of here.   Those who follow me on other boards, love me...  but I get bad vibrations on this board.  

      I wish you all good luck and a long and healthy lifespan.

      Like
    • Paul Beauchemin 

      Re: Maybe I think that I can convince people with anecdotes ?

      Hello Paul... No, I have not published any papers.  I am not a doctor, and I have read Dr. Richard Bernstein's story "My first Fifty Years as a Diabetic" and I won't bother to be rejected, as he was rejected when he tried to tell the world that his experiments with a blood sugar meter showed him that high carb foods raise blood sugar, and he was attempting to control blood sugar.  

      So, if Dr. Bernstein could not get published, I will certainly not get published, and I have not done any double blind experiments that would be scientifically accepted by any medical journal.    So chalk up all that I have written here about growth hormone as not scientific, not worthy to bother to read.

      Blagosklonny has written a lot about rapamycin, and I admire him and his theory that aging is driven by mTOR.   But he also says that HGH is bad, it shortens lifespan, and I am more than convinced that HGH is the second most important hormone that I take every day.  (the single most important hormone that I take every day is INSULIN...)  So I am not going to try to convince anybody about growth hormone, or about anemia, or about insulin, or about diabetes, or about senility, or about hyperbaric oxygen. 

      Everybody, do whatever you want to do, and I hope you are right, and I wish you a long and healthy life.  

      As Golda Meir said about her bad habit of chain smoking cigarrettes , she said "Nobody can say I died YOUNG because I smoked cigarrettes."  

      Nobody can say that I died YOUNG because I injected growth hormone almost every day for 22 years, or for injecting Insulin 35,000 times in 19 years, or for putting up my hematocrit between 50% and 55% for 19 years with EPO, or for injecting testosterone for many years.

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier Nothing personal - just quoting the science. 74 is not to old - you have 8 years to reach average male lifespan in Canada, 6 years for England, and 4 years for United States.

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier The legal situation in the U.S. is real and any physician would put themselves in legal and professional jeopardy for prescribing this controlled substance without a legit medical purpose. If you were living here in the U.S. your selling of HGH would land you in prison. No medical provider on this forum is attacking you personally. As an interventional pain management specialist, I urge extreme caution with involvement in controlled substance prescribing or usage outside what is considered a legitimate medical purpose. Please see below

       

      Anabolic steroids, human growth hormone, and other similar substances are treated as controlled substances, meaning it's illegal to possess or use them unless you are legally allowed to do so. Like other controlled substances, criminal charges can arise when you use steroids for non-medical needs, as well as when you sell or distribute them to others. Penalties for steroids crimes tend to be more significant for situations involving the sale, distribution, or the intent to sell or distribute steroids, while possession and use crimes are typically charged as less significant crimes.

      Human growth hormone and illegal steroids are punished by both federal and state law, and these laws can differ significantly in the penalties they impose. Most crimes are prosecuted at the state level, but both state and federal crimes are typically charged as felony offenses.

      • Incarceration. Jail or prison sentences for steroid crimes differ widely. A conviction for a misdemeanor possession crime, for example, could result in a prison sentence of up to a year in jail, while a felony possession charge could last for a year or more, and possibly much longer. Convictions for distribution, sale, or possession with intent to sell could result in prison sentences of five years or more.
      • Fines. Fines for steroid and HGH crimes can be significant. A simple possession conviction can result in fines of several thousand dollars, while fines for being involved in a pill mill or for sale or distribution can exceed $10,000 or more.
      • Probation. A person convicted of a steroids crime may also face a probation sentence in addition to, or apart from, jail and fines. Probation sentences last at least 12 months, but can exceed 3 years or more. While on probation a person must comply with the court's probation orders or risk facing additional penalties, such as serving prison time, paying additional fines, and having the probation period extended. Probation orders impose requirements such as regularly meeting with a probation officer, taking random drug tests, maintaining employment, not associating with known criminals, and not committing more crimes.

      Enforcement Actions

      In January 2003, the FDA sent a warning letter to Be Youthful, of Edmonton, Canada, objecting to claims that their Be Youthful HGH product was effective against depression, chronic fatigue, high blood prsessure, and high cholesterol levels [21].

      In April 2003, Nature's Youth, LLC, of Centerville, Massachusetts, voluntarily destroyed approximately 5,700 boxes of "Nature's Youth HGH" with a market value of about $515,000. The destruction took place after the FDA notified the company that claims made for the product were unsubstantiated and therefore illegal. The company had claimed that the product, which it described as a growth-hormone releaser, would enhance the body's natural production of Human Growth Factors and Insulin-like Growth Factor-1; improve physical performance; speed recovery from training; increase cardiac output; and increase immune functions; and was "your body's best defense against aging." [22].When asked for substantiation, the company cited Rudman's 1990 report, which, as noted above, does not support such claims. The product's leading promoter has been G. Gordon Liddy, the former Watergate conspirator who served five years in prison and now hosts a talk show syndicated to 160 radio stations. In 2002, Nature's Youth's Web site carried a testimonial from Liddy:

      I am often asked my secret for remaining virile, vigorous, potent and fecund. The secret is that, in addition to not smoking or drinking alcohol, exercising and following a diet low in calories, fat and red meat and high in fish, I have for some time been taking a Human Growth Hormone Releasant specially formulated for me and heretofore not available to the public. Now, under the brand name Nature's Youth HGH, the exact formula I have been using is available to you. My secret is out. Nature's Youth HGH is how I stay "Good to Go and Ready to Launch! [23]

      In 2005, Edmund Chein, M.D., who operates the Palm Springs Life Extension Institute (PSLEI) in Palm Springs, California, was placed on five years' probation during which he must (a) pay $10,000 to the State of California for costs, (b) take courses in ethics, prescribing practices, and recordkeeping, (c) refrain from making unsubstantiated advertising claims, and (d) either have his practice monitored or participate in an intensive professional enhancement program. The clinic's Web site states that PSLEI specializes in "optimized total hormone balancing by returning hormone levels to values consistent with a younger person." The grounds for discipline included inappropriately and negligently prescribing HGH plus insulin to a patient who was neither deficient nor diabetic [24].

      In 2007, the College Pharmacy, of Colorado Springs, Colorado, its owner (pharmacist Thomas Bader), a sales representative (Kevin Henry), and a sales representative (Bradley Blum) from a company in Houston, Texas, were indicted by a federal grand jury for illegally importing and distributing HGH from China. The indictment charged that the defendants obtained Chinese-manufactured HGH that lacked FDA approval and repackaged and sold it to physicians throughout the United States. In response to the indictment, the Colorado Board of Pharmacy revoked Bader's license [26]. Blum subsequently pleaded guilty and was fined $10,000 and placed on 2 years probation. In 2008, the U.S. Government and the pharmacy owners reached a civil agreement under which $3.5 million (representing the proceeds from illegal importation and sale of HGH) was forfeited [27]. For many years, the College Pharmacy catalog identified it as "one of the largest, most comprehensive compounding centers in North America." In 2005, it was fined $50,000 and placed on probation following complaints that its pharmacists had incorrectly dispensed medication.

      In 2008, the Oregon Medical Board revoked the license of Jerome N. Lentini, M.D., who operated "A Younger You" clinics in Salem and Tigard, Oregon. The charges leading to this action included prescribing HGH injections, which he falsely told patients would falsely told patients that the injections would stop, slow, and/or reverse the aging process. He was also prosecuted for prescribing Botox substitutes that were not FDA-approved [28].

      In 2009, Sean Shafer and The Compounding Center, Inc.,of Phoenix, Arizona were charged with illegally distributing HGH. The indictment alleged that the company's Web site touted impermissible uses of HGH for "anti-aging" purposes and that from 2001 through 2006, nine doctors made more than 400 purchases totaling more than $1.1 million. The indictment also states that Shafer, in his capacity as the manager of the wholesale department of the Compounding Center, also sold a number of HGH kits to two undercover operatives who specifically told him that the purchases were for bodybuilders and athletes [29].

      In 2011, Linda Bunch, M.D., who practiced in Monroe, Louisiana, pleaded guilty to conspiring to import and distribute HGH. The indictment charged that she had conspired with a chiropractor to import the drug from China for an unapproved use [30]. In 2012, she was sentenced to 27 months in prison and ordered to forfeit $200,000. Bunch then tried to change her plea, but the District Court judge denied the request and also refused to delay imprisonment while she appeals further.

      The State of Washington's Medical Quality Assurance Commission (MQAC) has disciplined at least four physicians and one naturopath for advertising and/or prescribing HGH and/or other hormones for "anti-aging purposes:

      • In 2010, Kenneth M. Jones, M.D. signed agreed order under which his license was suspended for 30 days, after which he was placed on probation for five years. He was also fined $10,000 and permanently prohibited from promoting, prescribing, or otherwise providing thyroid hormones, human growth hormone, human chorionic gonadotropin, testosterone, or other anabolic steroids [31].
      • In 2012, Jerry N. Mixon, M.D. signed an agreed order that prohibited him from prescribing growth hormone and required him to (a) pay a $10,000 fine, (b) serve at least three years on probation, (c) take an approved ethics course, and (4) submit to semi-annual practice reviews [32].
      • In 2013, Janet Vondran, M.D., signed an agreed order agreed order under which she was (a) fined $3,000, (b) prohibited from advertising or prescribing hormone supplementation, and (c) placed on probation for at least 2 years during which she would be subject to semi-annual practice reviews [33].
      • In 2013, Bradford Weeks, M.D., was s fined $5,000 and his license was suspended for at least three years [33]. He has appealed the board's decision [34].
      • In 2015, the license of Edmund M. Corpuz, N.D. was indefinitely suspended after he failed to respond to charges that he had prescribed HGH for weight loss to people he had interviewed via Skype but never examined [35,36]. Six months later, he signed a consent order under which his license was reinstated but he was fined $1,800 and placed on probation for at least two years, during which time he was required to take specified continuing education courses and have his practiced monitored [37].
      Like 2
    • Mark Thimineur  A prodigious compilation of "weight of the evidence" there Mark!  I was not aware of possession of HGH being even a minor crime.   Yet, people are bringing it in from HGH clinics in Mexico where it is prescribed by doctors their.

      Like
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Dorian Gray Mexico 

      Like
    • Mark Thimineur 

      Re: the legal situation of HGH in the U.S.A. is real.

      Hello Mark, you mention this:

      "In 2008, the Oregon Medical Board revoked the license of Jerome N. Lentini, M.D., who operated "A Younger You" clinics in Salem and Tigard, Oregon. The charges leading to this action included prescribing HGH injections, which he falsely told patients would falsely told patients that the injections would stop, slow, and/or reverse the aging process."

      What is so crazy about this is that he did NOT "falsely tell his patients that the injections would stop, and/or reverse the aging process"   

      That is exactly what I am convinced that HGH does.  (I would say HGH will "slow down" the aging process, because after 22 years of HGH every day, I have to admit that I did not STOP or REVERSE the aging process, but I certainly did SLOW IT DOWN ! )

      And yes, I know it is extremely penalized to be in possession, or to sell growth hormone in the United States.  But Humatrope is MADE IN THE UNITED STATES.   How can it be so penalized for using or selling a legal medicine, made in the U.S.A.?  Why can a doctor who prescribes HGH for the good health of his patient lose his license to practice medicine?

      You can get a legal prescription for HGH in the United States.   It will just cost you a bundle of money, so if you are rich enough, you can get a legal prescription.   It will take a lot of expensive blood tests to PROVE THAT YOUR BODY IS GROWTH HORMONE DEFICIENT. 

      This is like having to take many expensive tests to PROVE THAT YOU SHOULD DRINK WATER, WHEN YOU KNOW YOU ARE THIRSTY.   Everybody past the age of 30 years old will probably benefit from authentic injectable growth hormone  (Humatrope, Serostim, Norditropin, Genotropin, etc.)

      But this is the way it is, in the United States.... There are more than 3,000,000 persons in JAIL in the United States.   Some for bank robbery, some for murder, and some for selling or using GROWTH HORMONE which is the master hormone, or for using or selling or prescribing TESTOSTERONE, which is the natural male hormone.  

      How unjust !!  How unfair !!!

      And there are many more million persons tied to the jail when they are released from jail and they are on probation.   This is a lot more persons in jail, in proportion, to how many persons are in jail in China, or Russia.

      You mention my friend Brad Blum above, and you say that he pled guilty.   Brad was forced to plead guilty.  He was blackmailed by the Bad Guys.  If he had pled innocent, as he was innocent.  He had been threatened by the Bad Guys that if he would plead innocent and win, they would accuse him again in another state, and again and again, until he would go broke and eventually lose.  

      I don't want to go into the details of Brad Blum's nightmare on this board, but if you care to know more, write to me and I will tell you more of the gory details. 

      And yes, I realize that if I was in the U.S.A. I would probably be accused of helping Americans (and many others around the world) to buy growth hormone in Mexico.  20 years ago, I even could send it to the U.S.A. by FedEx.

      I know that the owners of Ttokkyo laboratory in Mexico were forced to shut down their business in Mexico, when they visited the U.S.A. as tourists.  They were manufacturing testosterone legally in Mexico, but some (I suppose, a lot) of it was sold to Americans in pharmacies in Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez or CanCun, etc.    The FDA has a long and powerful arm.

      You can't even manufacture testosterone LEGALLY in Mexico, and sell it legally in Mexico, without the FDA butting their nose into your business.   So it might be a long time before I can go to Disneyland or Las Vegas, or New York again.

      But the legal status of growth hormone in the U.S.A. does not mean that GROWTH HORMONE IS BAD for my health.   I am very much convinced that it is extremely good for my health, and for the good health of all the persons who have come to Mexico, or who have helped to buy growth hormone legally but very expensively in the U.S.A. 

      For many years I was able to ship it by FedEx to the U.S.A. without any problem... until too many HOME RUNS were hit.   Then, HGH became a controlled medicine.

      How many persons spent many years in U.S. prisons for DRINKING BEER or manufacturing BEER, or whiskey, in the 1920's?   (And how many persons became RICH for selling Beer or Whiskey when it was ILLEGAL to Drink Alcohol ?)  

      How many persons spent many years in a U.S. prison for SMOKING MARIGUANA, which is now LEGAL in many states that once put persons in prison for smoking mariguana?  

      Was it fair?   Is drinking BEER a good reason to put people in jail for many years of their life ? 

      Was smoking mariguana a just reason for putting people in jail ?  

      Is using growth hormone a crime that you should be locked up for many years?  Who is hurt if you get stronger and healthier with growth hormone ?

      So, it makes me sad that more Americans will never be able to achieve ultra good health, because now they hear a lot of fake news about growth hormone. 

      I tell you, it is fake news.   You don't want to believe me, and so you will never try it.  

      But HGH is nearly absent from your body, so it cannot do what it used to do when you were 20 years old.  HGH is the best therapy for psoriasis,  for lupus, for Crohn's Disease, it repairs bones very fast, it repairs burns very fast.  And I have never heard from anybody that has told me that they got cancer, or diabetes, or acromegalia, or gynecomastia, or any of the other bad side effects that the FDA says might happen to you if you take HGH.   Never.  Not once in 22 years.

      So I don't care what Dr. Alan Green and Mikhail Blagosklonny or Jay Olshansky or Thomas Perls or Shlomo Melamed or 10,000 doctors might say is BAD about growth hormone.   They have never injected HGH one day, and I inject it every day, and I intend to continue to inject it every day.

      There are too many doctors on this age-reversal forum that attack me because I defend growth hormone, or because I am shocked that Dr. Alan Green doubled his dose of rapamycin from 6 mgs (which I thought was too high) to 12 mgs.  I would appreciate if there are persons on this board who have taken HGH, if you would write about your experience... good, or bad...

      I am convinced that Dr. Green's anemia is extremely bad for his health, and he doesn't know how to fix it.   I am sure he is very ill and suffering.   I hope his anemia will reverse itself and improve, but anemia doesn't spontaneously get better.... it gets worse.

      - Ellis

      Like 3
  • Awesome to hear, Rob!

    Do you think you feel better with the Rapa?

    This that I have  is manufactured by Profound Products , and the box says its made in the EU.  I use Profound's Metformin, and also their low dose naltrexone, and have always found these products to be high quality, so hopefully the Rapa is just as good.  I think I'll start with 1/4 tab , as I weigh 108 lbs, and maybe 1/8 tab for my 50 lb dog.  My ultimate goal is to give some to my mom, but feel like I have to try it myself first haha.

    Like
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      angie4life Not sure if I feel better.  Under a ton of stress trying to help one of my dogs keep the use of her rear legs (disc problems), and maybe starting to deal with it better.  She was getting shaky and panting a lot - she has mild valve disease but not in CHF.  It seemed harmless, so I had the doggie physical therapists we are seeing try an ozone therapy treatment.  I am cautiously thrilled.  The panting is way down and she is much more stable on her legs, plus more energy.  Basically they shoot O3 up her rear. The Os break off and oxygenate her system.  Would like to try it myself.  How is LDN working for you?  I have it for my pups only, but one of them seemed to get a lift from it.

      Like
  • Profound Products doesn't sell directly to consumers. I tried several companies they list but so far haven't found one that carries Rapa-Pro. I don't have a prescription. Angie4life, whom did you get yours from and did they require a prescription?

    Like
    • Don 

      Like
    • hi Don,

      i got my Rapa Pro (rapamycin), my Metformin (also made by Profound ), and just recently my low dose naltrexone (also by Profound ) from International Anti - Aging ; I believe It may be called Anti- Aging Systems now .The only one I’ve tried by Profound so far is the Metformin and it works fine .  I usually get my low dose naltrexone from Israel Pharmacy and order through the Buy LDN website that takes me to the link . On this website , you can buy smaller doses of LDN and work your way up to the top dose of 4.5 mg , whereas the Profound product only comes in 4.5 mg . I got it from Anti- Aging this time , as they were having a good sale . Works great for autoimmune issues and gives very vivid dreams sometimes!

      Like 1
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      angie4life 

       

      Hello, Don, Angie, and RescueElders group,

      This is Rudi Hoffman from Florida, new to this group and a 25 year LEF and antiaging/cryonics enthusiast/lay scientist.  Having met them at the last RAAD (my third) I ordered a week ago RapaPro and Metformin from International Anti-Aging Systems.  I read the magazine these folks put out, the endorsements, and they seem very legit and reputable (although I could of course always be wrong.)  
      I will be taking the Rapamycin at the recommended 5 mgs/week level for three months, unless side effects occur.  I currently take Metformin (India offshore source, my doctor won't provide script because my sugar is normal) at 500 mg time release 2/day.  And a bunch of other mostly LEF products I will provide on a different format so we can try to do something that looks like real science on the universal problem of aging.  

      The easiest person to fool is ourselves.  I understand my tendency toward "magical thinking" and try to counteract it.  Which is why I have just taken the AGE PANEL BLOOD TEST recommended by Bill Faloon on this site.  We/I want HARD DATA as well as anecdotal reports of effects.  I commit to reporting what is REAL, whether it is good, bad, or indifferent. 

      This will be interesting.  Thanks to you all for your candor, integrity, sincerity, and willingness to be "Health expansion test pilots!"  May I respectfully join your ranks?
      Rudi

      Like 1
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      angie4life Hi Angie. Thanks for your prompt reply. I had put in an order for Rapa-Pro through IAS and their payment request likely wound up in my spam folder. They never replied to my inquiry using the link to their "expert consumer support team". I'm submitting a new order today and shall see how this one works out.

      My original order included metformin. For the present I'm staying away from metformin as it reputedly depletes B-12 and raises homocysteine levels. Those problems could be counteracted by supplements, I suppose, but sometimes I feel I'm over-supplementing and bringing on digestion issues. 

      My dream life is strange. Weeks go by without dreams (none I recall, anyway) and then I'll get a vivid dream or two. I can't relate my dreaming to anything I'm taking. If I could, I'd take more of whatever it is.

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi Welcome, Rudi. I'm a most infrequent contributor here. I like reading here when I can scrabble up the free time.

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi By the way, are you confident enough about the quality of products you get from your  India source to use it to get rapamycin?  

      Like
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don Hey Don and Rudi! I got my rapamycin from India twice and China once and the products certainly look genuine but getting a lab test is not something I'm up for yet. Great that you are getting the lab work done Rudi! I'll look to see if their is a separate senolytics section since I ordered fisetin which Bill Faloon didn't mention but very recent research shows is fairly close to dasatinib in senolytic ability at least in mice. They have started human trials with it (available as supplement, 100 mg Swanson, etc.) and it is much  cheaper than dasatinib and has no reported side effects since it has been around for years and is found in fruit, etc., so I'll likely try a few hundred milligrams next week w/ some quercetin.

      Like
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Dennis I should mention that I haven't noticed the huge improvement on met/rap that Dr. Alan Green did but my DNAm test last month showed 71 vs. my actual age of 74 and I'm sure my cancer risk is way down and I do feel better after a year on the two drugs! Will be trying NAD patches also, along w/ NR.

      Like 1
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi Hi Rudi,

      Thanks for info about IAAS.  I absolutely agree with the need for measurement data.  I am going to be doing some experimenting with senolytics both with myself and with my aging pups.  Long shot, but I am wondering if there are tests that specifically indicate changes due to senescent cell removal.  One thing to keep in mind for those of us who are trying a lot of different things: if you see a sudden improvement, it might be the last thing you tried, but also (from a knowledgeable vet) our bodies/systems can reach threshold levels where the results only seem sudden.

      Rob

      Like
      • Danmoderator
      • skipping my funeral
      • dantheman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi Welcome Rudi, as a friend and client I'm delighted to see you here, welcome! And thanks for the IAS recommendation, I've been hunting for a source but have been unsuccessful so far. Though now I have to decide if I actually want to try this modality. I already practice regular 4+ water only fasting (which addresses synololitics and lowered calorie as met/rapa do), and I'm only 52 biologically going on 32. Decisions ...

       

      Rudi or anybody can you tell us more about this company? Where are they based out of? They seem rather 'cagy' on their website. 

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Dennis I Thanks for the information on fisetin. I hadn't heard of it. Seems worth checking out.

      Like
      • Dennis
      • Retired USAF pilot, biochemist.
      • Dennis
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don Definitly worth checking out! Start at https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03430037 .

      Like
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Don 

      Hi Don,

      Re: Confidence in my India source for Metformin...no, I have no way of ascertaining actual quality/content/purity of the Metformin I have been getting.  I believe it has not actually poisoned me to my knowledge.  And I will be probably changing vendors to IAS as there's seems lower in cost and endorsed by Aubrey DeGrey.  
      Best,

      Rudi

      Like 1
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Dan Mc 

       

      Thank you for your nice email, Dan Mc...

      My confidence level in integrity of IAS is based on endorsements in the magazine they passed out at the RAAD and a few good conversations I had with the reps there.  I wish I could speak to their quality control, assays by independent labs, etc.   But I can't.


      I can say there have been no red flags so far.  Although one should be advised that their website doesn't take credit cards, you provide your checking account number for payment and get a phone call a few minutes later to confirm it is a real checking account number.  But the prices seem great on various innovative therapies and molecules I have been reading about and itching to try for many years.   

      Good to have a forum like this to share real data...unsullied by concerns about veracity or bias as a function of the info provider having a vested interest in selling products.  

      Let's make this work.  I commit to total candor and integrity in anything I post on this site (and in general for that matter.) 
      Rudi Hoffman

      Like
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Rudi 

      Sorry, wrong spelling on "their's".

       

      Rudi

      Like
    • Rudi Hi. I've ordered from IAS for years and have always been satisfied with the quality of the products (thyroid medication), and have never had a problem with payments/charges etc. . From my experience, they've been a reputable company.

      Like
      • Rudi Hoffman
      • World's Leading Cryonics Funder
      • Rudi
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      angie4life 

      Hi Angie,

      Thank you for this helpful confirmation re: IAS.  
      Rudi

      PS...my stuff has arrived I ordered from IAS...faster than expected (I paid the $15 shipping).  We can safely assume that molecules are as expected.  Those little suckers are so small I can't see them, so I am glad to have the reasonable assurance of common sense and this group of pioneers to provide me some sense of independent corroboration. 

      Like 1
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Thanks, Rudi.

      My payment to IAS finally went through. I'll report on my use of Rapamycin, if I notice anything to report, or if I don't. Which may take some time.

      Like
    • Don Hi Don,

      How much of the Rapa do you plan to take?   The directions on the Profound box state to take one quarter, one half, or one tablet per week (1.25mg to 5mg) as directed by your physician . This manufacturer is clearly  indicating a geroprotection dosage.

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      angie4life Hi Angie,

      As I'm new to this kind of supplementation I'm being cautious. I plan to start with a low dose, probably 1/4th of a tab once a week at a specific day and time, and watch for any effects, positive and negative. For  the immediate future I'll rely on subjective responses to decide as whether to increase the dosage. Eventually I'll need to figure out which blood tests are the most relevant to how this product performs.

      Like
      • Danmoderator
      • skipping my funeral
      • dantheman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don AFAIK the only subjective responses in humans are possible negative ones. I haven't seen that there are any positive (such as increased vitality, grey hair reversal, etc). The possible negatives are mouth sores (really high doses I believe) and stomach upset. What's notable is that in the dog study video Bill has shown, the dogs do have significant effects, namely they look and act younger. But in humans I think you have to measure the effects via blood and lab tests. 

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Don I'm not a large person and doubt I'll take a full 5 mgs soon. I took 1/2 a tablet, 2.5 mgs, on Sunday a week ago and 1/4th, 1.25 mgs, last Sunday. I thought I noticed some increase in energy the first week, though that's too subjective a response to have much trust in. So far this week I've noticed no effect. I'll continue alternating those doses for another two or three weeks. Unless I notice something specific I expect to settle on 2.5 mgs. 

      Like
    • Don There are two blood tests which I recommend you should take.

      The first is "sirolimus level" which you want to take to see what are your high and your low values... Take your dose, and exactly two hours later, you check for "sirolimus level"   If it comes out, anything at all above zero, that means that sirolimus was detected and your product is real rapamycin.   If it comes out zero, there is no need to take a second test after 7 days and before you take your dose again.   If it is zero, it is zero, it is fake, it is not rapamycin.  

      Assuming that your rapamycin is authentic, you take another blood test seven days later, (exactly 7 days 7 x 24 hours if you can...) to check your low level.

      The second test that you should take is a Complete Blood Count.   In fact, you should take this before you take rapamycin.   If you have already taken a Complete Blood Count in the past, that is good enough.   Then... four or five or six months (take your pick) after you started rapamycin, take another Complete Blood Count, to see if there has been any significant change in white blood cells, and in red blood cells.

      I intend to write a book about rapamycin.   I will answer your question under the FAQ section.   And of course, I will ask everybody on age-reversal forum to comment or to contribute to my (our) book before it is published.  

      Like 3
      • Karl
      • Karl.1
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier book idea sounds great.

      Like
    • Don How did you pay IAS?  Is the 'wire transfer' option the only payment option available?

      Like
    • Yellow Tomato I can assure you that anybody who thinks that rapamycin alone is the way to extend lifespan and healthspan is mistaken.   I have done eight specific antiaging therapies very consciously since 1998, and now that I learned about it, I added rapamycin.   I also tried Senolytics, once, so far...

      I agree with you that aging is due 50% to reduction in hormones especially GROWTH HORMONE, and TESTOSTERONE, and INSULIN, and ERITHROPOYETIN.   Another 50% is GOOD NUTRITION, that means all the nutrients that your body needs AND that do not raise your blood sugar levels much above 100 mg/dl.  

      And... another 50% is EXERCISE... (yes, I know, that is 150%!!!   So that means I think they are all extremely important.)

      And there are also other anti aging therapies like Hyperbaric Oxygen which does wonders for your nervous system, and prevents loss of your brain.   And EDTA chelation, which removes some toxic metals and some calcium from your circulatory system.   (calcium should be in your bones, not in your circulatory system.)

      Like
      • Don
      • Don
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Patrick McHargue 

      They referred me to The Longevity Store, which accepts credit cards. 

      Like
    • Don It seems that they only carry books - at least that's all I see under 'All Products'  I use 'AllDayChemist.Com' for rapamycin and metformin.  Still looking for a supplier of dasatinib (sprycel) which I'll use for the dasatinib/quercetin senolytic protocol.

       

      Any suggestions on how to secure dasatinib?  The 'https://theantiaging.store/' has issues with payments, and the suppliers in India are a confused mess.  TIA

      Like
  • Dennis , where do you get the NAD patches?

    Like
  • See https://forum.rescueelders.org/t/x12myt/nad-patches for starters, David Michel provided some good info and he is ahead of me! He got nasal spray also but he may have paid a $350 consultation fee but that is just a guess.

    Like
  • My dog, Bailey, and I have been taking Rapamycin now for going on 9 weeks. I under-dose Bailey, who is 110 pounds. He receives 1 mg every 3rd day of the week. He is 6 years old. His appetite has improved, and his mood is now downright joyful. He jumps and plays just like a puppy now. I hope to keep him on Rapamycin, perhaps with several breaks during the year. For myself, I take 1 mg with grapefruit juice once-a-week. I am 53 years of age, and I weigh 100 pounds. I was born with a birth defect that renders my left leg joints stiff and painful in the mornings. It works itself better as the day goes on. However, I should note here that around my 7th week on Rapamycin this morning joint stiffness and pain has completely disappeared. Seriously...no joke...this is a problem that I've had forever. I am a rapamycin believer. :) <3 

    Like 2
  • I found an app that reduces rapamycin cost with drug specific coupons to about 23% of  public price.  I have used it on two prescriptions. search for 'goodrx' and type in the rapamycin or sirolimus to see which pharmacies in your area  are discounted

    Like
  • See top... GoodRX reduced the price from $1440 to $396 for 90 mg at Walmart, not quite as good as your 23% but pretty great. It depends entirely where you take the coupon.  Wahlgreens and CVS still wanted to overcharge, and they also limited the amount, regardless of what the coupon said.  Costco is good.  Don't assume your insurance won't cover.

    Like
  • I am an 82 yr old who happened onto Rapamycin research from a psychology CEU class.  I was doing CR, not overweight (5'3" 117#), taking Valsartan for HBP otherwise in good health (only arthritic stiffness).  I have done supplements forever with who knows what results.  In another CEU class I learned about benefits of modafinil (increased energy, motivation, concentration)which I take regularly (100mg daily).  Other than those only bioidentical HR.  The rapamycin research data persuaded me to give it a trial run.  I purchased via dropmed and began in August with first 2mg then 3mg,  weekly to test for side effects.  I had mouth ulcers the first week; since then no noticeable side effects.  Beginning in Sept I have taken 4mg every Fri morning.  I also tried Metformin but couldn't tolerate the GI effects.  As per Green's recommendation I began MittQ 100mg daily which may  produce similar effects to Metformin?  My observations so far (approx. 3 months): increased energy, greater flexibility and strength, improved gait (less wobbly).  My activity level has significantly increased; for example, this morning I raked and bagged leaves; hauled logs in the house; swept out the garage--spending 2-3 hours actively moving in 40degree weather.  In the recent past I could not have done this (too weak, too stiff) + wouldn't have had the energy or motivation to do it.  The effect might be placebo; time will probably tell.  I intend to continue on the present schedule.   I will have lab work early January which I will report on.  My cholest has always been low with HDL > LDL;  all values except thyroid in range (I also supplement thyroid .075).  I don't have any medical input at present.  

    Like 2
      • Van
      • Van
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Janice   I saw Dr. Green over 2 years ago.  One of his first patients.  At 82 yo., the ideal dose is probably 5 mg. weekly.  Women require less than Men in that they are more sensitive to MTor inhibition than men.  I take 6 mg. for 2 years, at 72 yo.  No side effects.  Also, Bicon is the largest manufacture in India, very good reputation, this is the brand Sirolimus that dropmedmd usually uses.  Dr. Attia also recommends 4-7 mg., weekly for men

      Like 2
    • Van You wrote  "...5 mgs. weekly.... Women require less than men in that they are more sensitive to MTor inhibition than men."  

      I wonder who told you this, and how did that person measure mTor inhibition in men and in women in order to know that it is greater in men than in women?  

      I assume that since you went to see Dr. Green, he told you this.  

      With all due respect to Dr. Green, I am afraid that doctors often say things that they don't know is true, but they say it anyways, and they say it as if it is a fact.  Then we accept it as true because a "doctor" said it, and then we repeat it, and it becomes a part of the "common wisdom."  

      But I have never seen or read anywhere that mTor inhibition has been measured in men or in women.  So until I know that it can be measured, I will leave it in the bag of things that doctors say, but they are just guessing.    I trust that MTor is being inhibited with rapamycin... but I have never read anywhere that it can be measured.

      Like 1
      • Rob8311
      • Rob8311
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Janice Sorry to go off topic but a quick question - how do you get modanifil, prescription?

      Like
      • Sam Biller
      • Sam_Biller
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Ellis Toussier If I’m recalling correctly, I remember an animal study which showed amplification of Rapa in female mice over male mice. I will see if I can locate the research and repost here. From my somewhat limited experience with Dr. Green, he is very much a data driven MD and doesn’t recommend something without some research to point to. 

      Like
      • Sam Biller
      • Sam_Biller
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

       Ellis Toussier As a follow-up to my previous post, here is some additional info on female vs male Rapa impacts (in mice). 

       

      “Because recent studies showed that rapamycin increases longevity in a dose dependent manner and at every dose tested the effect remains larger in females than in males, we hypothesized that rapamycin should have a stronger effect on gene expression in females, and this effect could be dose dependent.”

       

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447730/

      Like
    • Ellis Toussier The comments on gender difference come from rat studies I have read. Can't find it now but it was cited by Blogoskolony (spell)

      Like
    • Patient 139   Yes, I read them.  Thank you for showing this to me.

      Like
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