Details of dasatinib + quercetin study

Maximus may we presume the triggering of autophagy by fasting does not mimic chemical intervention?

Joseph bailry III Hi Joseph. 

From my understanding, that is not a simple question to address, though I recently came across a recent research report that suggests that fasting does not have the same effects as chemical intervention like rapamycin. 

Basically, fasting reduces mTOR, but senescent cells seem to keep mTOR elevated all the time, even under fasting-like conditions. Chemicals like rapamycin seem to "force" mTOR to turn down, even in senescent cells that usually have it elevated all the time. 

Turning mTOR down generally enhances autophagy. 

Thus, compounds like rapamycin could be expected to have effects that fasting will not. 

Max Peto Have there been any studies that combine intermittent or prolonged fasting with rapamycin and/or metformin?

Max Peto 

Can anyone discuss dasatinib Vs rapamysin  ? What are the benefits of each? Negatives?

Thanks!

BobM Comparing dasatinib and rapamycin is a good topic to consider. Unfortunately, exploring the details can take up far too much space on this forum. But here are a few points of my own: 

1. Dasatinib and rapamycin appear to work by two different mechanisms. Because of this, they don't seem like the most intuitive pair to contrast against one another. 

2. Both of them may affect senescent cells to some degree, but dasatinib does this more directly (rapamycin may not do so unless other conditions are met). 

3. I know little about dasatinib's toxicity, but I'm confident that rapamycin can be quite toxic if taken in too high of doses, if taken for too long, or both. Please use caution and read the relevant toxicity research before self-experimenting with either compound. 

Christine Neat idea Christine. I have considered this possibility and have actually done it myself, taking 5 mg rapamycin during a 24-hour fast on several occasions. My thinking was that the fasting may help enhance autophagy, partly by causing a reduced availability of amino acids, so mTOR activity may be even more impaired (and possibly senescent cells better starved). I'm not confident this regimen did anything particularly positive for me, however.  

Some people recommend taking rapamycin with metformin to help control blood sugar; maybe that's a good idea. I'm concerned about my glucose going too low as it is. Moreover, rapamycin, metformin, and fasting are all catabolic interventions--they enhance the body's deconstruction and inhibit it's ability to repair. I'm cautious about combining too many catabolic interventions at the same time until that has been shown to be safe. 

Max Peto Cool experiment! It would be nice to see it tried also with different doses and different durations of fasts. From what I have gathered, a 14 hour fast is sufficient to induce some autophagy in most people, but it takes more time to reach optimal levels of autophagy. That said, there may be a lot of variation between people. Do we have any way to measure autophagy levels directly?

I do want to try combining Metformin with basic intermittent fasting 14/10 and 16/8. I currently find that lifestyle/IF alone control my blood sugar better than Metformin alone, but want to find out more. (Once I have found a good panel for EU and have a home blood ketone meter for extra safety.) Actually, over time I am thinking of trying a protocol of 3 months with basic lifestyle/IF 14/10 in combination with Metformin and Rapamycin, alternated with 3 months of no meds but increasing the duration of fasting up to 72 hours. 48-72 hour fasts seem to be able to induce optimal levels of stem cell regeneration. Metformin does seem to be risky during prolonged fasts, as it impairs gluconeogenesis in the liver, so I would probably want to avoid longer fasts within a month of taking Metformin. I do wonder if there is any risk when ketone levels are high enough to provide energy to the brain.

Is there any consensus on what is too low in blood sugar for various groups?

On wiki I found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglycemia:

"

The glucose level that defines hypoglycemia is variable. In diabetics a level below 3.9 mmol/L (70 mg/dL) is diagnostic.[1] In adults without diabetes, symptoms related to low blood sugar, low blood sugar at the time of symptoms, and improvement when blood sugar is restored to normal confirm the diagnosis.[5] This is known as the Whipple's triad.[5] Otherwise a level below 2.8 mmol/L (50 mg/dL) after not eating or following exercise may be used.[1] In newborns a level below 2.2 mmol/L (40 mg/dL) or less than 3.3 mmol/L (60 mg/dL) if symptoms are present indicates hypoglycemia.[4] Other tests that may be useful in determining the cause include insulin and C peptide levels in the blood.[3] Hyperglycemia, a high blood sugar, is the opposite condition.

Throughout a 24‑hour period blood plasma glucose levels are generally maintained between 4–8 mmol/L (72 and 144 mg/dL).[16]:11 Although 3.3 or 3.9 mmol/L (60 or 70 mg/dL) is commonly cited as the lower limit of normal glucose, symptoms of hypoglycemia usually do not occur until 2.8 to 3.0 mmol/L (50 to 54 mg/dL).[17]

In cases of recurrent hypoglycemia with severe symptoms, the best method of excluding dangerous conditions is often a diagnostic fast. This is usually conducted in the hospital, and the duration depends on the age of the patient and response to the fast. A healthy adult can usually maintain a glucose level above 50 mg/dL (2.8 mM) for 72 hours, a child for 36 hours, and an infant for 24 hours. The purpose of the fast is to determine whether the person can maintain his or her blood glucose as long as normal, and can respond to fasting with the appropriate metabolic changes. At the end of the fast the insulin should be nearly undetectable and ketosis should be fully established. The patient's blood glucose levels are monitored and a critical specimen is obtained if the glucose falls. Despite its unpleasantness and expense, a diagnostic fast may be the only effective way to confirm or refute a number of serious forms of hypoglycemia, especially those involving excessive insulin.

The precise level of glucose considered low enough to define hypoglycemia is dependent on (1) the measurement method, (2) the age of the person, (3) presence or absence of effects, and (4) the purpose of the definition. While there is no disagreement as to the normal range of blood sugar, debate continues as to what degree of hypoglycemia warrants medical evaluation or treatment, or can cause harm.[18][19][20]

Deciding whether a blood glucose in the borderline range of 45–75 mg/dL (2.5–4.2 mM) represents clinically problematic hypoglycemia is not always simple. This leads people to use different "cutoff levels" of glucose in different contexts and for different purposes. Because of all the variations, the Endocrine Society recommends that a diagnosis of hypoglycemia as a problem for an individual be based on the combination of a low glucose level and evidence of adverse effects.[5]

"

Brennan I continue to inquire but so far only sources from India and China. I am frozen in action. How about you.?

Kerry Do these sources require a prescription? If not will you post the links?

Kerry in another discussion, someone posted that they had labs test the quality of the Indian drugs vs the US made ones and the quality seemed to be equal. That encourages me to buy the dasatinib from the Indian sites. 

Brennan

Brennan Contact dropshipmd.com generic Dasatinib cost:

bottle of 60-50mg = $280.00

bottle of 60-70mg = $300

Brennan  I am obtaining my Dasatinib from an Indian company which also supplied me with Rapamycin and Metformin. I have been very happy with their products and their prices were very reasonable compared with others.

their email :- trademedimpex@gmail.com

Brennan Contact dropshipmd.com They're in India. For $330 I ordered 60-70mg tabs of Dasatinib. Caveat Emptor!

@jerry searcy Yes Jerry dropshipmd.com is the Company I deal with and they are an Indian company. I can't comment on the purity of their product, but you will be impressed with the packaging, if that is anything to go by!

Their email address is:- trademedimpex@gmail.com and I deal with a very obliging man called Soni Jain.

Hope that helps.

Jean ( jpurc30659)

BrendaFromSoCal there is a place in Florida now that will do it for $225 for a years worth

murray flewelling jpurc  jerry searcy  Brennan 

I have just created a post about two interesting options for obtaining dasatinib which I think you may want to consider. 

https://forum.age-reversal.net/t/m20d78/sources-of-dasatinib

Brennan ... compounding pharmacies are everywhere near you if you live in a city. Use google. If you request in advance they can order it for compounding. Use goodrx for a lower price. Or buy it from this age reversal site as shown elsewhere on this site.

Brennan    I received a supply from this intermediary: Avinash Singh
Medicate International pvt ltd
WhatsApp : +919582467581
 

Let me know if you try it out to compare results.

djmichel These dosages can be closely calculated by multiplying the weight in pounds by 1.1 (110%) for Dasatinib, and 10 times that for Quercetin.

David Michel Just an update at 5 days post ingestion of D+Q.   The aftermath is that I have been tired, and a little brain fog.  This hit me harder that I though it would, but as I am 76 years old I suppose I have more Senescence cells than a younger person and correspondingly more die off. I am still going to do the second dose this Monday, but not looking forward to it.  I will advise of the outcome.