Which Rapamycin brand to buy versus which to avoid?

Currently looking at buying rapamycin online, likely via India, for delivery in Europe, and I see there are a number of brands, including:

  • Biocon - who sell it as "Rapacan"
  • Zydus Cadila (I also see "Zydus Biogen: mentioned) - who sell it as "Siromus"
  • Rocas - who just say "Sirolimus tablets" on the box
  • Panacea Biotec - who sell it as "Siropan"
  • Actiza - who just say "Sirolimus tablets" on the box
  • Pfizer - Rapamune (unsure if genuine via India)

If anyone has experience, good or bad with these (or others), I'd appreciate it!

Thanks

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  • Brin Chikovski - Hi Brin! I see mentioned getting some Biocon Rapamune tablets tested, and there were "unknown compounds" in the tablets. Presumably some cross-contamination, other than the rapamycin + filler?

    Out of interest, what brand are you using since?

    Like 1
  • yes - as you may know with HPLC analysis you can identify what level of something you're looking for in a given product - in this case sirolimus by comparing it to a chemical "standard" which you know is sirolimus from companies like Sigma Aldrich - its really hard to identify other substances mixed in with a compound unless you have some idea of what you're looking for.  The other compounds in the Biocon sirolimus / rapamune were completely unidentified.. they could have been just filler, or it could have been something else.  

    The lab I was using "Valisure.com" has stopped their services for people just looking to get their medicines tested - and have focused on their pharmacy business - so I haven't been able to find any other low cost HPLC lab testing companies for my medicines from India - which is frustrating.  Valisure was priced at around $100 for quality/purity and dosing (is it actually 1mg of rapamycin) testing (Valisure also did a test on common contaminants), and they could do it all using only 3 X 1mg tablets.  Now I can't find anything much less than $300 to $500 - which is more than I want to pay for purity testing, because you have to balance it with the risk of confiscation by US Customs - and the larger the order, the higher the risk.  An order of about 500 tablets of sirolimus comes in a shoebox-sized package from India.  When the testing is as much as the cost of the medicine I start to balk. If anyone has a good moderate cost analytical lab they'd recommend - please post here.

    So while I started off this process about a year and a half ago testing all my medicines from India - now I'm not able to test any and I'm "flying blind" - which is far from an ideal scenario.  In the lab tests I did on the product batches over a year ago now on sirolimus - the Zydus Sirolimus tested ok - but that was only on two batches, so with N=2 its hardly a robust sample size and there is no guarantee that other batches are as good.  I'm still using up the 1000+ sirolimus tablets I ordered over a year ago - and now there are issues with the India postal service due to Covid, which is delaying orders by weeks or months.  

    Really we should be all testing medicines from India.  I'm highly skeptical of medicines coming out of India and China (including Generics in the USA, since most of them come from India, with the API (Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients) all coming from China.  I recommend everyone read the Katherine Eban book on Generic Medicines:  

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/05/12/722216512/bottle-of-lies-exposes-the-dark-side-of-the-generic-drug-boom

    Like 1
    • Brin Chikovski - Thanks for the reply Brin! Very helpful. Yes, that's v frustrating that your go to Valisure.com are no longer available to consumers. $100 is very affordable. Last time I tested a supplement for purity it cost ~$700 - so your $300-$500 range is much better.

      On the plus side, you still have many tablets you ordered previously, so you won't need to go hunting for options just yet.

      Quality control aside, how are you finding the physiological effects of Rapamycin (if you notice anything)?

      Like 1
    • John The key physiological effects are weight loss, more energy, easier to exercise. I've also been taking Metformin (a year and a half ago - which helped me quickly lose 10 to 15lbs), then Acarbose (good on blood sugar, but causes gas), and now Canagliflozin (another easy 10lbs of weight loss).  I think Rapamycin is working - but without biomarkers its hard to know for sure.  I take 10mg to 12 mg every 10 days, in a single dose. I'm 58, 5'9", currently 162lbs or so. I get blood work done every few months and things seem to be going in the right direction.  Biological age as calculated by the Levine Phenotypic calculator is in the 42 to 45 range.  I also take about 10 supplements - CaAKG, Lithium Orotate, Niacin/Niacinimide, Quercetin, etc.

      Like 2
    • John Some other minor things I've noticed in terms of there effects of taking rapamycin (at 6mg to 10mg per week) over the past year:

      1. Used to get phlegm in my throat during the night, and in the morning so I'd have to clear it when I woke up - that problem went away on Rapamycin

      2. Eye discharge (sleep) used to accumulate in my eyes overnight - but that's gone away with rapamycin

      https://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/eye-discharge.htm

      3. Toe nail fungus - used to have some of this the past few years, all gone now with rapamycin

      https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/nail-fungus/symptoms-causes/syc-20353294

      Like 1
    • Brin Chikovski - Thanks for the reply Brin. Sounds like you've improved a lot of things - the weight loss + more energy are big ones!

      Also, toe nail fungus is a pain, so that's pretty nice to have got rid of it!

      With your approach to the blood glucose medications, am I right in thinking that you took Metformin first, then Acarbose, and now Canagliflozin? So right now, you're just taking the latter, and not a combination?

      Also, what kind of dosage are you taking with the CaAKG?

      That's a nice result with PhenoAge - around 15 years younger :)

      Like 1
    • John with regard to the blood glucose medications - I started with Metformin and used it for about 4 months and lost about 15lbs.  Then I became aware of the research that suggests metformin has a negative impact on muscle growth after exercise, so I decided to pause metformin (plus the lifespan improvement of Metformin in the NIA ITP studies is minimal).  I then tried Acarbose after the ITP results on it were announced - and its generally ok, but the amount of gas I would get sometimes was higher than I would like - so I'm using it much less frequently (I have a stash, and generally will add 50mg or 100mg if I'm having a higher carb meal). The benefits of acarbose is that you can take it with the meal and it helps block carb absorption.  Then I purchased Canagliflozin and really like it - no noticeable side effects and its active for 12+ Hours - so I just take it in the morning and forget about it.  I quickly lost another 10lbs after initiating Canagliflozin and blood glucose levels are really well controlled and kept in the range of 70 to 110 most of the time.  So no I mostly just take Canagliflozin and occasionally add a bit of acarbose at dinner or with a beer later in the evening as needed.  

      With CaAKG I typically take 1 gram of the powder a few times a day - I tried the Rejuvant for a few months - but that's about the same price as I pay for my rapamycin and canagliflozin combined - so it was more expensive than I would like.  So - now just take the generic CaAKG.

      Like 1
    • Brin Chikovski - That's really interesting about the glucose medications. First time learning about Canagliflozin. That's great to hear about the tight control of your blood glucose range.

      With the CaAKG do you notice anything physiologically when you take it? Or are just taking it for the studied benefits?

      Like 1
    • John Canagliflozin is almost as good as Rapamycin.  Read up here:  

      https://forum.age-reversal.net/t/p8hktdh/canagliflozin-a-one-month-report-its-good

      No obvious improvements with CaAKG.  Just trying it based on the studies.

      Like 1
  • I am also looking for a company to deliver to Europe. And yes testing seems to be crucial. 

    I have contacted http://www.hhdpharm.com/. Other people on the forum has bought from them (not me).

    Like 1
    • Staffan Olsson Hi Staffan! Wasn't able to load the URL you shared - perhaps the site is temporarily experiencing issues.

      Do they sell in tablets, or just powder?

      Like 1
    • John I can load their site now. As far as I know they only sell in powder. I have not yet bought from them. I mailed them two days ago, still no respons. 

      Like 1
    • Staffan Olsson - Ok. If it's powder, bare in mind that measuring out small amounts of milligrams is hard because of the size and precision needed.

      Personally I'd rather go for tablets which are at specified quantities, and trust that they can measure more precisely than I can.

      Like 2
    • John I'd be really suspect of any powder rapamycin for human consumption.  A completely opaque supply chain is a bad thing for pharmaceuticals - who knows what contaminants might be in it?  Completely untrustworthy.  At least you know with a pill from a major or minor Pharma company you know that there is a higher likelihood of it being something a human can ingest and there is "some" accountability - at a corporate level - even if its just in negative news stories and books like Katherine ban's book.  Chinese firms have no accountability in any legal sense (from Western consumers) and they know it.  If it harms you, good luck suing them!

      Like 1
    • Staffan Olsson Steffan - you say "testing is crucial" with these powders - but the issue is more complex than that.  The analytical labs will do HPLC analysis to determine purity of the compound for you (and even that is expensive - frequently $700 to $1000+ for one test) - but even if you get lucky and it tests say "98% pure" - you have no clue what the other 2% is.  Have you ever done lab testing?  its not like there is a test that says "Here is what the other 2% is..." - you have to test against a sample standard - so if you don't know what is in the powder, you can't test for it.  Really to do proper testing you need to understand the raw materials used in making the compound, and the manufacturing process, so you can make a reasonably informed guess at what contaminants might be in the final product - which you an then test for.  Buying powder rapamycin from China is truly a huge leap of faith.  Is it really worth it to save $50 over buying from a Pharma company in India (itself a far from perfect solution)

      Like 1
      • Mr. Joules
      • Mr_Joules
      • 4 mths ago
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      • Reported - view

      Brin Chikovski janoshik the steroid lab tester, he also test rapamycin. 300 euro per test so its a ok price 

      Like 1
      • Mr. Joules
      • Mr_Joules
      • 4 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      John i found 10mg spoons, that got the same acurassy as a 300 dollar scale. works great ! doing 2 spoons - 20mg 

      Like 1
    • Brin Chikovski - This isn't a topic that I'm very familiar with - but I think using mass spectrometry you can help to identify what is in the thing you're testing. It has its limitations though of course.

      Like 2
      • JGC
      • JGC
      • 4 mths ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      John 

          A couple of years ago I had some Dasatinib bought from BonHoa in India (and manufactured in Sri Lanka) tested at a US laboratory by HPLC followed by mass spectroscopy.  It was the real thing.  The testing lab provided a plot showing two mass peaks one very large and the other one tiny.  The dominant peak was at the expected molecular mass for Dasatinib.  The other was 16 units higher, which I think indicates that a small fraction had been oxidized.

      Like 3
  • I don't have an option to edit the original post - so I'll share here.
    I've ordered 2 types from India, and will see how they are:
    - Zydus Cadila - Siromus
    - Biocon - Rapacan

    Got an estimated 3-4 weeks before delivery - but hopefully is quicker!

    Like 2
  • Just thought I'd give an update on where I got to with the purchase. I created a shortlist of sellers on IndiaMart and reached out to them regarding:

    • Which brands they offer
    • Prices per mg, including shipping
    • Estimated delivery date

    Two offered to do a video call and show the stock they had along with the expiration date, which is a nice touch.

    Ended up ordering these 2 brands:

    • Zydus Cadila - Siromus
    • Biocon - Rapacan

    I wasn't super impressed that the Biocon packaging looks different colors (its not just the lighting in the picture), like their printer was short on ink or something. Have started by using the Zydus product first, given that I can. Might be a non-issue though! Who knows.

    I'm attaching images of the product in case anyone is curious.

    Main concerns would be:

    • Do the products actually contain any rapamycin? (am planning to do a test to check rapamycin levels at a later date, which should help clarify on that question)
    • Are the doses measured correctly? (milligrams are pretty tiny). No way to be sure on this.
    • Are there any contaminants (heavy metals, etc)? Currently I'm just crossing my fingers that if there are, it's a small enough amount to be a non issue. May do some testing at a later date.
    Like 5
    • rapa_experimenter What was the price / mg you ended up paying for these purchases?

      Like 1
    • Brin Chikovski In USD:

      • Biocon -  $1.19 per mg delivered
      • Zydus - $1.64 per mg delivered
      Like 2
    • rapa_experimenter 

      Hi, do you mind sharing who you purchased these from along with their contact info? 

      Like 1
    • Jay Donovan Hi Jay. I bought these via IndiaMart sellers.

      The sellers have my contact details, so I'd rather not get too specific about where I got them from (personal privacy).

      Ultimately I think what's more important is the brand you go for. There are a lot of seller options on IndiaMart, so it's just a case of weeding through them for communication skills and (apparent) competency. If I did it again I'd:

      • Check which brands they hold
      • Ask to see pics of their stock and what the expiration dates are
      • Make sure their communication is good, and that they're confident with shipping to my particular country
      • Get quotes and compare prices
      • Potentially order from 2 different sellers simultaneously - if I'm in a rush. That way if one has issues, there's a plan B.
      Like 4
  • I get mine from a compounding pharmacy in the US.

     

    Amazon pharmacy also has very good prices.

     

    But a prescription is needed

    Like 1
  • No to Biocon!  I titrate based on Rapamune via Pfizer and find Biocon to be ~15% the claimed dose!

    Like 3
    • GEdwards Yes, I plan to avoid using the Biocon. Thanks for the comparison on it with Pfizer.

      Like 2
  • rapa_experimenter

    Did you do the test to check rapamycin levels?

    What is your experience with Zydus until now?

    Could you please share the information?

    Thank you in advance

    Like
    • Albert R. J. Hi. No, I didn't personally test my Zydus branded tablets.

      However, I did spot that there was a Valisure test done on Zydus brand dated May 2020, which you can read here:
      https://www.rapamycin.news/t/why-and-how-to-test-your-rapamycin-pt2/66

      Look for the PDF report at the bottom of that first post, which you can download and read. The results were favourable in terms of it containing the amount of rapamycin it purported to, and in terms of not having contaminants.

      Regarding my experience with Zydus until now - I can confirm that it gives me aphthous ulcers that people talk about. I otherwise basically never get mouth ulcers, so it's certainly doing something.

      I haven't carried out any further tests - so can't give any more info than that.

      Like
    • rapa_experimenter What country in Europe did you order from and get the medicines into?  I've heard that the UK gets medicines from India without a problem, but some other Europeans have complained that its harder (for example, in Germany).  Did you have any issues with customs?  How large was your order (in the US - if the medicine is not a "get high" type of drug, and in reasonable quantities for personal use, they usually get in.  I'm curious what the experiences are in different EU countries...

      Like 1
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