Treatment for Reducing Arterial Plaque and Imflammatory Cells:

I would like to start this as a focused topic.

Background: I’m 69, have followed Bill Faloon / Life extension protocols for about 10 years. Doing the Dasatinib / Quercetin and Rapamycin treatments since mid last year. I have very low body fat, eat very healthy and have outstanding blood work. Model ldl/GSK triglycerides. Very low inflammatory markers. 

Now I have 2 stints. Fixed 95 and 90% blockages in two main arteries.  I was fortunate to go in to ER before some serious heart damage happened.

So digging into why:  Plaque accumulation on the inner area of the artery wall. 

So for me, figuring out how to REDUCE plaque seems like the biggest life extension action I can take. And I am sure this is true for many others. 
 

Consulting with my heart doctor was not fruitful. He prescribed the cookbook set of meds: 10 mg of Lipitor, 40mg of Avorstatin, 61 mg aspirin, 75 mg Plavix (clopidogrel).

I got  some good advise from folks on another forum herein. Found Avorstatin helps LDL/HDL but does nothing for plaque or inflammation. I’m now taking 40mg of Crestor, in place of the Avorstatin.

See Birmingham Medical News, New Plaque Study highlights Power of Crestor.

Very good!

Other: I’m looking to change Lipitor blood pressure med to Ramipril. This product seems to lower inflammation levels in the blood, whereas Lipitor does not.

Questions for discussion:

What else can we do to reduce plaque?

Is there something we are doing in our healthy protocols which causes more plaque buildup?

Cellular Inflammation in the Blood: how is this really measured? How do we reduce naturally? Do any of our senolytic treatments knock this down?

All: please pass along any good research things you have seen.

This is a great group!

Thank you!

BobM
 


 

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  • Bob, I am 79 year old male who had bypass surgery 26 years ago. Shortly thereafter  I got involved with Life Extension and read several articles by an author named Dr. William Davis in the LEF  magazine. He also authored a book entitled "Track Your Plaque".

    I visited him in his office in Wisconsin. To make a long story short, he put me on lipitor and FISH OIL. The change in my blood chemistry was miraculous. The fish oil lowered my triglycerides significantly and also changed my LDL particle size  to the large fluffy type that does not contribute to plaque. My carotid intima thickness has not changed in 20 plus years.

    I get my oil from Costco  and it is Natures Bounty The Kirkland brand is also good based on Consumer Labs analysis. I daily take about 5 grams of EPA/DHA from six capsules. 

    Note you have your statins and BP meds  mixed up. Lipitor is a statin and not a blood pressure med. I take lipitor as it does not "seem"to cause as many issues as Zocor or Crestor. I cannot take Zocor as it elevates my liver enzymes. I have friends who cannot take Crestor due to mind fog.

    I also take Ramapril for blood pressure control. It is considered by some to be "antiaging" as it activates the "Klotho"gene. You can check this out on google.

    Also note that fish oil has myriad of other benefits and in my opinion (retired fish biologist) may very well be as important as other antiaging topics on this forum.

     

    Finally, the above is based on my experience and I must emphasize that I am not a medical dr.

     

    Best of Luck to you

    Like 3
  • I swear by intermittent fasting in reducing inflammation.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4257368/
     

    Like 3
  • Look into high doses of the Vitamin K fraction MK7. Several studies have shown calcification reversal of aortic valves. There are several ongoing studies now pertaining to plaque/calcification reversal. Typically you'd want to take about 380 mcg/day

    Also consider testing for Lp(a) as it is a genetic risk factor for heart disease.

    Like 2
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Randy B 

      Thanks Randy.

      FYI group- what I found (correct me if anything is wrong):

      Vitamin K MK7 is Menaquinone-7.

      LEF Super K Elite has “trans Menaquinone-7”, 181 mcg, and other forms of vitamin K2. And K1.

      A min dose of 45ug/day is required to activate osteoclasts carboxylation (whatever that is).

      Mk7 has much higher bioavailability and is why it’s better.

      This site has more info:

      vitamink7.com/how_k2_works.php

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM 

      more:

      MK7 is shown to reduce arterial calcification. It functions as an inhibitor to calcium deposition.

      Menaquinones occur naturally in fermented animal products, such as cheese and meat (go figure).

      Mostly, MK7 is used to help with bone density and fighting osteoporosis.

      Like
      • Randy B
      • Randall_Bagrowski
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM  The optimal dose of MK7 for reversing arterial calcification is approximately 380 mcg/day. This is based on studies examining how much Matrix GLA  Protein (MGP) is activated in response to a dose of MK7.  

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM 

      sorry, try:

      vitamk7.com/k2_focus.php

      Like
  • Go on a keto or LCHF diet and get insulin resistance under control

    Like
  • Hey, great post! Are you saying that Senolitics + Rapamycin didn't seriously impact (or improve) arterial blockages? If so, kinda surprising. Thanks for sharing!! PS: I'm really liking the effects of Fisetin (2g x 2, every 3 weeks). I generally feel healthier the week after taking it. (Be it testosterone boost or whatever---blood work coming soon. Also it's a strong antiviral, with some strange blisters appearing then healing like an acne coming to head).

    Like 2
  • To Gokhan, Paul B., Randy B., Andrew Y: Your response to Bob M"s inquiry on inflammation and plaque has significant benefit for the average person, but if this is only what I followed, I would be dead. I need my  statin and fish oil to stay alive. Attached is a more recent paper on intermittent fasting which addresses the benefits for cardiovascular issues. There is no question that it is beneficial for a number of health issues. 

    https://www.gwern.net/docs/longevity/2019-decabo.pdf

    However it is not sufficient for me.  I have been a vegetarian for 5 years and on 5:2 diet for the past two years. I take a  statin and big dose fish oil and my LDL is still marginal ( 85). My cardiologist wants to increase my statin dose. I have survived 26 years after my bypass without additional efforts, which has a probability of less than 5 %. I attribute this to my statin and fish oil. Attached is one of many  references attesting to the benefits of a statin and fish oil combined.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915759/

    If you check the volumes of references on google, you will find a conclusion that about 35 percent of the population needs a statin. Also, as indicated immediately above, there are benefits for integrating a statin with fish oil. Many of the references to this combination are derogatory in term of the value of non prescription fish oil. You would think the authors work for big pharma. You can check with Consumer Labs as to whether or not the over the counter brands fish oil are what they are supposed to be.

    My suggestion to Bob since his condition, like mine, appears to be very severe  is to  continue his Crestor,  do a CBC, lipid profile along with a VAP blood test and  than start with fish oil (about 4 grams total of EPA and DHA) and repeat the blood work about 3 months latter. He can purchase the blood tests through LEF rather cheaply (God Bless LEF). He can also purchase the fish oil from LEF and be assured that it meets specification. 

    This brings me to the issue of fish oil benefits in general.  LEF has multiple articles on the benefits of fish oil for numerous biological systems. Barry Sears has written extensively on the benefits (emphasizing reduction in inflammation) and published many books.. Another reference of particular importance to me (I am almost 80 years old)  is a book entitled "The  Omega 3 Connection" by Andrew Stall, 2001. The Stall book is about the benefits of fish oil in preventing dementia as well as a number of other neurological problems.  Note, at 85 years old,  50 % of the population has some form of dementia. I just saw a recent peer reviewed paper that estimated  fish oil with Vitamin B complex reduced alzheimers by 75 %.

    If you read all of this, God Bless and please try not to hold any grudges, thank you. 

    Like 1
  • Peter, You are preaching to the choir about intermittent fasting (IF). I did it for 10 years and I did "real" IF. I ate nothing for 34 hours every other day. I make that distinction because so many people are doing the 5:2 diet (and similar) and think they are doing IF... They are not!  Having done IF for 10 years (and Calorie Restriction for 10 prior) I have yet to see IF or a similar regime have the ability to reverse plaque in a timely manner. It is a very slow process. MK7 is probably the best choice for a "quick" reversal of plaque (and even then we are talking a good 1 to 3 years).

     

    I'm surprised so many people are tracking their LDL-C and thinking it somehow relates to heart disease? Your LDL-C of 85 is absolutely meaningless. What is your LDL-P? 

    Like 1
  • Randy B: I have not done a LDL-P test for 20 years, since my meetings with Dr. Davis after my bypass. Note the VAP test I suggested to BobM includes a LDL-P test. I use LDL-C as a marker and it is not "absolutely meaningless". It saves me about $75 twice a year in terms of not paying LEF  for the  bloodwork for LDL-P.

    LDL-C It has value once you establish your baseline. If I see my LDL-C go much higher, I will become more aggressive which includes an evaluation with a VAP test. As I indicated in my second response to BobM, it appears to work for me as I have not had another cardiovascular event in past 26 years. I also use the Triglyceride/HDL-C ratio (see Barry Sears) as a biomarker..

    i do not know if MK-7 works, but fish oil unquestionably does based on extensive personnel experience as well as extensive literature. if BobM has a serious problem, and it appears that he does, I suggest that he read the references on fish oil and proceed accordingly which includes the VAP test. He will also benefit from the other extensive health benefits that fish oil offers.

     

    By the way, I do get extensive MK-7 from LEFs "Health Booster".

    Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter, thanks for all your info!

      I’ve made some progress.

      1. Found the LEF super K was low in the K2 MK7. Only 181 mcg. So I am supplementing this with NOW MK-7, 100 mcg, 2 more per day (so one tab/meal). 380 mcg total per day. 


      2. Changed statin Med from avorstatin 40 mg to Rosuvastatin (Crestor) 40 mg. It’s a high dose. I hope to be able to take this down after 1-2 years. 

      3. Increased my fish oil dose to 1500 mg, 3x/ day.

      4. Changing blood testing to Monitor / look at LDL-P. 

      5. Adding another doctor. This one is at Mayo Clinic (Scottsdale AZ) in the heart group. He specializes in vascular disease / Prevention methods. (They have groups of heart specialists for each kind of heart condition- amazing group). He will be helping me with the CIMT testing to measure actual plaque changes. Mayo has good equipment for doing this test. This combo was hard to find. I’ll report more after a couple visits and test reviews. 

      Like
    • BobM Thank you for the info. Good luck. If you have info let us know what happens to your Tri/HDL. I  have two  family members who would not here today without Mayo- Rochester Mn. They had neurological problems.

      LEF has article in August 2020 Mag on fish oil, yet to be published.

      The Vit K suggestion I believe came from Randy. I was unaware of its benefit, as well as EDTA for plaque . I learned something. Good thread here.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter and Group: 

      I’ll keep posting as data comes in.

      Of interest now:

      my last 12 months of blood work was very misleading! It said I was in excellent health!

      6-28-20 data (stints went in 8 weeks ago). Hospital blood work was similar: 

      total cholesterol: 119

      HDL 45

      LDL 54

      T.Chol/HDL Ratio: 2.6 (way way low risk)

      Est CHD Risk: <0.5 (way low)

      C-Reactive Protein: 0.60 (very low)

      Hemoglobin A1C: 4.9 (excellent)

      Apoliprotein B: 80 (good)

      July 2019 Data:

      total cholesterol: 138

      Trig: 69

      HDL 52

      LDL 72

      T.Chol/HDL Ratio: 2.7 (way way low risk)

      Est CHD Risk: <0.5 way low)

      C-Reactive Protein: 0.81 (low)

      Hemoglobin A1C: 5.1 (excellent)

      Apoliprotein B: 78 (good)

      And my weight was way down. Body fat just 13.1%. 

      The point here being is that I still had 95% blockage in my left main artery and 90% in the LAD.

      No indication of it from all this happy stuff we do. Plaque was building and building. I am certain many others have the same thing going on.

      So this mission is to get on a plaque reduction plan that works, and use a measurement method that is accurate. And get a Dr that’s thinks prevention using all the new things possible. 
      Cheers!

      bob

      Like
  • I have no personal experience of it, but one therapy that some people say can reduce plaque is Vascular Rejuvenation using EDTA.

     

    Here is a link:

    https://brain.forever-healthy.org/display/EN/Vascular+Rejuvenation+using+EDTA

    Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Staffan Olsson 

      Hi Staffan, thank you. That reference was excellent. Some amazing results in there for plaque reduction and some other benefits.

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Staffan Olsson I have done about 75 edta chelations. After all of my experience and studying I have come to the conclusion that it is not the calcium that is being pulled out that makes it therapeutic. It is the preservation effect on the blood making the red blood cells soft and pliable reducing the scraping or scoring effect on the endothelium like a diamond cuts glass, hard enough rbc's cut the artery, then it heals with scar tissue which narrows the artery which makes it more prone to pressure increase at the narrowing which rescores the endothelium which then causes more scar tissue and presto you have artery narrowing. No one will tell you this, most chelations docs dont even know this, they just know it works so they don't bother looking any further into it. EDTA also removes iron which is also the other half of the equation to its benefit. Iron or ferritin is toxic and caused oxidative stress and damages the endothelium. You can donate blood to mimic the effect of chelation which removes ferritin from the blood and forces your body to make more rbc which are young and softer and more pliable and easier on the artery wall.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud 

      Great post. I like the idea of giving blood regularly. Good one the add to my list !

      Like 1
    • Fred Cloud Thank you for your response. I wonder if you can share your experiences of edta chelations. After 75 chelations your personal experience and the health benefits of the treatment is very interesting. ?

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Staffan Olsson I think the whole heavy metal removal theory is not the whole story. I had high ferritin and I think the chelation was helping compensate for it, it can pull the iron out of the endothelium and thin the blood and make things better for a while. If you think about it, most of these old timers that were getting chelation were men, men build up ferritin. I also was exposed to alot of lead as a child so I was trying to get rid of that. Dr Blumer who ran a study found it reduced heart disease and cancer deaths by a large amount, well that jives with the benefits of blood donors. It used to be very popular but you don't hear much about it anymore, have you ever done chelation? I think donating blood is going to get you similar results. If you wanted to do IV therapy for your heart I would recommend IV Plaquex. It is phosphatidylcholine and a bile acid that dissolved cholesertol out of the arteries. I have done that too, some chelations docs would alternate back and forth.

      You can find docs who do it, it is also known as IV PTC, IV plaquex, IV PPC

      https://youtu.be/ZnUMf__pwGY?t=20

      Like 1
    • Fred Cloud Thank you Fred. I do other interventions for now, but any progression in the field of plaque reduction is very interesting to me.

      Like 1
    • BobM 

       

      Here is another perspective on how to reverse atherosclerosis.

       

      There is research aiming at reversing athrerosclerosis by resetting the microbiome. They have done it successfully on rats. But it is hard to translate into humans. But it is a another confirmation of the importance the gut and its microbiome has for wellbeing and good health.  

      https://www.lifespan.io/news/reversing-atherosclerosis-by-resetting-gut-bacteria/

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Staffan Olsson You may want to ask @garland  he has had 50 of these plaquex treatments.

      Like
  • Peter, LDL-C is worthless, absolutely worthless as a marker for heart disease. You need LDL-P tested. If LDL-P is normal/low, you are "safe" regardless of what your LDL-C is. If your LDL-C is low (aka good) and your LDL-P is high you are a walking time bomb.

    The VAP test was worthless too that's why it was withdrawn from the market several years ago. I see it is back. The reason it was originally withdrawn (my conjecture) is that they were using some algorithm to Compute the various forms of cholesterol. They never showed data that proved their algorithm  was accurate. Yeah, they claim they stopped the test because of investor support but I don't buy that flimsy story.

     

    As far as LEF and MK7 you are getting a small fraction of what studies show you need to remove plaque from your arteries, which is close to 400 mcg/day. And remember LEF was selling a watered down version for years of MK7 that was a racemic mixture.. and claiming it was all Trans. 

    Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Randy B 

      Hi Randy

      could you kingly explain further about LDL-P and testing for it?

      I do it recall this in the LEF tests.

      Thanks!

      Like
      • Randy B
      • Randall_Bagrowski
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      BobM  Instead of me writing up a big explanation I've attached a link. This guy does a pretty good job of describing the importance of LDL-P (with references). The Medical Journals are full of studies confirming what he says, and that is.. LDL-C is not a predictor of heart disease but LDL-P is. Doctors just can't get the brainwashed heads to accept the data. But then again, if you had a drug dealer show up to your office every week and offer you free samples of the latest LDL-C lower drug wouldn't you want to give those out to your patients too?

       

      https://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-why-everyone-should-know-their-ldl-particle-number/

      Like 1
  • Randy:, will stay with my approach. It worked for 26 years. Your LDL-P is better (is  part of VAP test) if starting from scratch. I do not know details about MK 7, but fish oil is my preferred approach to block inflammation and prevent  plaque and is backed up  with several thousand peer reviewed studies. Check out the books by Sears and others. Fish oil also has multiple other health benefits in numerous other systems.

    On the EDTA Suggestion by Olsson, it also has merit and has risk assessment in Forever Healthy. It has been around for many years.

    Like 1
  • This is a brief followup to the many excellent replies on this topic. First, a big that you to all!

    I consider my root cause problem to be plaque buildup. Not too much of an inflammation issue. 

    I have been on a strict low carb and high veg diet for many many years. And heart healthy eating.

    Diet including large daily doses of LIfeExt Olive oil (exceptional), 3000 mg of high quality fish oils, LIfeExt Vit K2 SuperK Elite), 300mg pycnogenol, 1000 mg metformin ER and AMPK activator, curcumin elite, immune senescence, and the monthly large doses of fisetin, weekly senolytic activator, weekly rapamycin, 2x/year dasatinib. More...

    Labs: 2x/year. Last result in part (before stints and new changes):

    glucose 94

    total cholesterol: 138

    Triglycerides: 69

    HDL Cholesterol: 52

    LDL Cholesterol: 72

    T.Chol/HDL Ratio:  2.7 (much less than 1/2 the average risk)

    Estimated CHD Risk: <0.5

    C-Reactive Protein, cardiac: 0.81 (risk for future cardiac event is LOW if under 1.)

    white Blood count: 3.1 (low)

    DHEA: 233

    Hemoglobin A1c: 5.1 (I used to be 6.1, controlled it with diet and exercise, then added metformin, more for life extension benefits.

    Note: my statin Med change from 10 mg to 20 mg dose helped those cholesterol/trigl values. But did not do much for plaque.

    Like 1
      • Joe smith
      • Joe_smith
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      BobM that’s extensive supplement stack. Have you tried magnesium for plaque reduction? Also do you have wbc test before you started taking rapamycin?

      Like 1
    • BobM You sure got all of us old men stirred up. Thanks- Keep it up. 

      Your blood work looks fantastic.  Offer only one suggestion. Your fish oil may be somewhat low. Sears suggest 5 grams  EPA-DHA if you have cardiovascular problems.

      If your using LEF  fish oil, 3 capsules would contain about 1.8 grams

      Attached is a recent paper (one of several) which documents that fish oil on its own lowers the TG/HDL ratio: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6074619/. I believe that they used 3.8 grams EPA-DHA in this study. It also improved the LDL-P profile.

      I do not know where your plaque issue is originating. My blood chemistry has a similar profile and I have not had any buildup based on my carotid intima measurements in the past 20 years-- there was one slight bump. 

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hey Peter, thanks for your comments, and suggestion to increase fish oil!

      Can you kindly advise what exact fis oil your taking and dosage? Sorry if you already advised. You know us elders have short term memory issues😎😎

      Like
    • BobM Bob, I use Natures Bounty and get it at Costco. If you get on sale , it is $15 for 130 capsules, each of which contains about 900 mg EPA/DHA. It is molecularly distilled. I made this choice based on a analyses by Consumer Lab. I note that in CL's last analyses, Natures Bounty was not included. They recommended Costco's Kirkland Brand as the most cost efficient in term of quality- why the change I do not know. I do not think that they were paid off as CL has given Costco bad marks on other products. 

      I have used LEF's extensively in past, but Costco is more convenient.  I also have full faith in anything LEF sells. Note that many oils are contaminated with mercury, PCB's and other toxics, so you have to be careful.

      If you check the literature you will find that the combination of fish oil and blueberries  is "one" of the most  powerful contributors to neurogenesis. Others include green tea, cucumin, DHEA and testosterone and estradiol. DHEA is particularly important. 

      LEF has extensive summaries on all of these in its book.

      If we get past our cardiac problem, the next major issue we face is dementia of one form or another. That is my biggest concern before SASP. It looks like you are addressing that issue already.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Thanks Peter!!

      Like
  • I've read quite a number of studies now and I don't see any relationship between LDL-c and survival. I fact higher LDL and Tot Cholesterol is better for survival when you are over 65.

    Ratio of Tot C to HDL and Trig to HDL are better preditors.

    And if you think your statin is doing you good, why not get CAC and CIMT to confirm improvements?

    Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Paul Beauchemin 

      Thanks Paul.

      FYI for those (like me) not all that familiar with CIMT testing: 


      https://blog.daveasprey.com/what-is-cimt-testing-imaging/

      https://blog.daveasprey.com/what-is-cimt-testing-imaging/
       

      Like 1
    • Paul Beauchemin You and others have missed my point on LDL-C. It has value as a trend marker on the lipid profile. I agree that LDC-P is superior, but I do not need one of these any longer and do not wish to incur the additional cost. As indicated in my previous comment to BobM above, I had bypass surgery 26 years ago, and the probability of me being alive 26 years later or not having another is less than 5 %. I referenced a Dr. Davis who worked out for me integration of a statin  (Lipitor)and fish oil to minimize my risk. His blood work depended on a VAP test which includes a LDL-P test. In my case it was the fish oil that resulted in the non inflammatory large LDL particles as measured by the LDL-P test in the VAP test. 

      In my initial comments to BobM, I suggested that he do a  VAP test after experimenting with fish oil. I also suggested he measure his progress with a carotid intima test (CIMT). I do one of these every 2 years, and with one exception over the past 20 years, there has not been a plaque increase.

      I agree with you on the triglyceride/ HDL ratio as an important biomarker to evaluate the possibility of heart disease and also suggested that BobM look at this ratio. According to Barry Sears as well as Dr. Davis, this is probably one of the best biomarkers to indicate cardiovascular problems and fish oil dramatically lowers the ratio ( at least in my case and references in the Sears books) due to the fact that it reduces triglycerides. Sears, as I recall, recommends 2.7 grams of EPA-DHA as a starting point. Dr. Davis started me on 4 grams (over the counter) and I continue with 5 grams today. 

       This brings us to value of LDL-C and lipid profile without a LDL-P test to me. On my last blood test my LDL-C increased to 87 (from~75-80) and my TotalC/HDL ratio  (also good marker) reached 2.8 from about 2.5. This ratio indicates that I am in good shape in terms of not having an ischemic heart attack, but I am not taking any chances and increased my lipitor.  I will do a chemistry profile, CBC and lipid profile in September. I have numerous uncles-great uncles who passed due to heart attacks in their 40s, 50s and 60s. As indicated by the Dr. in the Crestor film, genetics plays a large role in whether or not we have cardiovascular  problems. If you go through the 1,000s of papers on statins, you will find that about 35 % of us need a statin. I will be 80 in October, and hope to make it anther 10-15 healthy years.

      Based on BobMs stent history, he needs to be extra vigilant. Each of us is different. You can generalize but a lot of us will die as a result. I had a father in law who passed several years ago at 97. He was a beef farmer with a feedlot in NW Illinois. I don't think he took a pill until he jumped off a tractor and broke his hip at 93. He ate meat and potatoes 3X/day and if you said anything about that lifestyle being unhealthy -"God Help You". I was within a few days of a heart attack at 54 following the same lifestyle.

      I will leave discussion about the benefits of fish oil for anther day.

      I love this site--- just started fisetin following Mayo Protocol after reading about it here and being forwarded to the "Healthy Living" risk assessment. As reported by others, I saw immediate results and will report out after my blood work in Sept.

      Thank you everybody.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe Good info Peter, do you manage your ferritin levels at all? This is a fascinating article on the role of iron.

      http://nautil.us/issue/67/reboot/iron-is-the-new-cholesterol

      Like 1
    • Fred Cloud Fred, thank you for your comment and interest. My response will only increase confusion on cardiovascular issues-- but here it is:

      I am severly hypogonadal and have been supplementing with androderm ( patch) for the past 20 years. If you read the early LEF literature ( see LEF's "Disease Prevention and Treatment") they reference the fact that some anemic individuals have lower levels of testosterone. This results in a a feedback mechanism to increase cholesterol and thus testosterone as testosterone is made from cholesterol after cholesterol has  been converted to pregnenolone etc. It has been shown, for example, that treatment with chlomazine, a gonadotropin stimulating hormone agonist which increases lutenizing hormone and thus testosterone, results in a decrease in cholesterol. With this short background I was always anemic prior to my bypass, and continue to be anemic occasionally.

      I actually supplement with iron sulfate at 325 mg 3X per week. My iron was only 84 ug/dL  ( range 38-169) and my ferritin was only 50 ng/ml ( range from (30-400) based on my last blood test.

      My total testosterone on my last blood test was only  197 ng/dl ( normal range is 264-916).

      The interaction between totol T, free T and DHEA would take several more paragraphs, but simply put,  if you supplement with DHEA, the amount of free T increases from 1-2 % to 3-5 % which bring free T within an acceptable range.

      Note also that metformin as well as calorie restriction will decrease total T. Apparently the increase in AMPK from either treatment is telling us that now is not the time for sex. 

      I will end again with the statement that we are all different and it is unlikely that a single treatment, except for a statin plus fish oil, will solve a cardio problem for some of us.

      Like 1
    • Peter H. Howe sorry Peter, I totally disagree 

      LDL-c is extremely bad as a trend tracker. It has zero correlation with the outcome we seek, that is, increased lifespan. 
       

      It can do great harm if people use it to manipulate statins.

       

      only sdLDL is important. 
       

      I think the Lipid Hypothesis is flawed, but if someone buys it, at least be willing to pay a few extra $ to get a lipid subfraction 

      Like 2
    • Paul Beauchemin Disagree again. As I have said repeatedly, I did the LDL-P under Dr. Davis's care several times twenty years ago until he got my lipid profile where he wanted it as he treated me with a statin and fish oil. Referring now to my lipid profile with some emphasis on LDL-C is all I need until something goes wacky. As I have indicated several times, I also use the TG/HDL ratio  which has been around as a biomarker for over 20 years. This marker is profoundly influenced in a positve manner by fish oil and a statin. In my last blood test, there was a small  increase in LDL-C, Total C and TG/HDL ratio.  All of these values were in acceptable range. However, my  cardiologist doubled my stain because of my history.

      I just recently, on my own initiative, returned to my previous statin dosage as I want to see what happens on the Mayo Fisetin treatment protocol I Just started. I experienced some remarkable positive effects immediately and want to check my blood work in Sept.  to see what shows up. Do not wish to have the blood work confounded with any other input from the time of the last bloodwork.

      At this time I will respond to your lifespan  goal. From my perspective, it is not lifespan, but healthspan  we are seeking. This is a multifactoral  undertaking and necessitates efforts on several fronts. Your repeated  emphasis on the glucose/insulin ratio  as most the most important value has a lot of weight but is overly  simplistic.  I could never meet the 1.2 value you recommend.

      I eat a lot of berries and fruit for their various polyphenol content-lot of sugar. I also have a cup of  homemade yogurt and keifer every day for their probiotic content. The fermentation process in each case converts about 1/3 the lactose to lactic acid but I still have a lot of "milk sugar".

      Not discussed so far in these healthspan comments are benefits of hormone modulation therapy- Check out the multple antiaging benefits of DHEA supplementation if needed- see LEF's  "Disease Treatment and Protocol". This book also addresses male and female HRT. Unfortunately, it is somewhat out of date as recent publications on testosterone treatment to prevent dementia, osteoporosis and sarcopenia in seniors are not included.

      These are just a few of the factors associated with ageing and means to slow it down. One of these is fish oil and I will comment on this in my comment to BOBm

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe Thats interesting. Did the doctor figure out the reason for your anemia? That is very strange for a man to have anemia. The body does not really have any efficient way of getting rid of iron in a man so it generally increase over a lifetime unless you are a vegan or have a slow bleed like an ulcer.

      Like
    • Fred Cloud Fred, I think it is in the genes. My brother, who is 7 years younger than I am, is also hypogonadic and had a stent inserted. He also supplements with a testosterone gel-- not with a patch delivery as I do.  Stents were not around 26 years ago. 

      My suggestion to any mid age male who is anaemic and has high blood cholesterol , that they check their testosterone. Finally, this issue has been around for many years and was addressed by LEF contributors when I first joined. 

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe Genes for being anemic? Is your brother anemic also or just low test?

      Like
    • Fred Cloud Fred do not know will ask. As indicated this was a topic when I first started at LEF. At time I was full fledged beef eater  due to my wife's families occupation.

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe  So interesting. Generally you consume iron, and levels build unless you bleed. Your body tries to sock it away in long term storage as ferritin but that is toxic and causes aging too. Could be some genetic issue but I have never heard of it. Did your doc seemed concerned or checked you for ulcers. Do you take daily childrens aspirin or anything?

      Like
      • Randy B
      • Randall_Bagrowski
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe  Peter, You just do not understand basic science. It doesn't matter that YOU feel that tracking LDL-C is beneficial. SCIENCE says it is not. It does not matter what your LDL-C level is. If you have high LDL-P, you are a walking heart attacks. BTW, What was your LDL-P when you last checked it?

      Like 1
    • Fred Cloud .Checked quickly on google. There is a genetic component to anemia and transcription factor protein was identified.

      I have never had an ulcer or blood in my stool. Had several colonoscopies over  the  years--not since I turned 75--too dangerous. Just stopped daily LD aspirin. The anemia was always with me before my bypass and aspirin.

      LEF's book has several references to testosterone treatment resolving anemia issues.  Also  higher levels of testosterone decrease chance of heart attack and increases life expectancy in men.

      https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1677-55382012000400011

      Above article documents treatment with chlomiphene increases testosterone and lowers cholesterol in hypogonadal men. This is a fertility drug used to stimulate  pituitary to produce FSH to stimulate ovulation in females. It is just beginning to gain  acceptance as means of increasing  testosterone in males  

      Like
    • Randy B Sorry, Randy,Ii have not checked in 20+ years. Do not need to. I have full grasp of basic science:  Fish oil and statin with lipid monitoring every 6 months. It has worked for 20 plus years and Insilco's models suggests I may have another 20.

      I do not have to repeat VAP and LDL-P  unless a serious problem erupts.

      Like
    • Randy B + Randy (and Paul B as well ),  we have been through this before. For the last time, please follow my logic. I had an emergency bypass 26 years ago. This was based on an angiogram the previous day. I have not had another, and I am still here as you give me a hard time. Something is working. The probability of me going longer than 26 years after a bypass without another surgery or just being alive is less than 5 % . 

      I explained before that a Dr Davis over 20 years ago sat down with me and integrated a statin and fish oil to prevent future problems. This was based in part on LDL-P tests and how it was affected by fish oil.  I agree that  that if you are starting from scratch , an LDL-P test is better than just LDL-C. I suggested a VAP test (Includes LDL-P) to BobM as one of the first steps he should undertake to evaluate his progress.

      I currently include the Triglycerides/HDL ratio as one of the best indicators of how I am doing. A value of one says that that is where I need to be. If you have  long term trend of ~1 the possibility of an  ischemic cardiaic event is zero.  The Total C/HDL ratio also has value. I am not going to take a chance and I get both from a simple lipid profile.The LDL-C plays a role in how I proceed along with the ratios.

      Finally, I use the ratios and lipid panel with some emphasis on LDL-C to evaluate experimental conditions that I am pursuing. If the ratio is much higher than 1 and LDL-C is high,  for one or two consecutive times-- the experiment stops. An example follows.

      Attached you will find a summary of my blood work since April, 2016 which I will use to illustrate my approach.  I became a vegetarian in mid 2015, and wanted to evaluate whether or not I needed my statin as my Total C was somewhat low ( ~140) for a number of years.  I stopped my lipitor in early 2016 and there was almost an immediate unacceptable increase in all elements of the lipid panel ( especially LDL-C)  and my ratios. Needless to say I resumed my lipitor and everything returned to normal. Conclusion: I need my lipitor even under the best of diets. I do not need the LDL-P to make this decision. 

      It is not simply a cost considertion. This plays a role, but I spend ~$700 for lab work per year with LEF - maybe more. I get everything I need--for now--  with this effort.

      A second example is for my intermittent fasting  results that stared in 2019.  I will leave my comments on this for Fred Cloud as it has bearing on previous comments on testosterone, cholesterol and anemia we have had. 

      Peace-- hope this helps.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Thanks for sharing these details.

      I think this discussion is very beneficial to all of us. Disagreement is a core of learning!

      Like
    • Paul Beauchemin Thanks Paul. I am aware of the studies referenced in the review article.  I do not agree with the conclusions in my case and the conclusions are dangerous to many like me that are genetically prone to heart disease.  I have been on a statin plus fish oil for almost 25 years after a emergency bypass over 26 years ago.  As I have indicated to BobM, it is the interaction of both taken together that prevents heart attacks in those of us who are genetically  prone to heart attacks-- the number one cause of mortality in U.S, at about 600,000/year. Without the statin plus fish oil, I would have been having this discussion with multiple relatives who passed in 40' 50'sand 60s due to cardiac arrest and who who did not have a statin.  

      I went on a vegetarian diet and fish oil without a statin for two years  and my cholesterol went into the danger range. This effort on my part was due to studies that indicate if you drop below 160 Total C, mortality rates increase due to factors other than the cardiac issue.

      We previously had the discussion on the relevance of Triglyceride/HDL ratio to predicting a heart attack. Mine is one due to the statin plus fish oil which indicates that my chance of a cardiac event is non existent. We can go one step further and conclude that the fish oil changed my LDL to the fluffy type based on LDL-P test. I provided BobM references to both of these. 

      In terms of genetics, one predictor of cardiac events is your IGF-1. Below 80 ng/ml cardiac events increase. Above 150 ng/ml  cancer rates increase.  Mine is typically about 70. This can be a topic for another day.

      For any of us to make it o a healthy 100, there are multiple factors for each of us to overcome, and they will not be the same for all of us. The exception may be the multiple benefits of fish oil. In this regard, I see that LEF has a fish oil article in the August , 2020 magazine.

      Like 1
  • How I Reversed 20 Years of Arterial Plaque

    https://youtu.be/QOWF0KTNu2g

    Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Andrew P K Yap 

      Hi Andrew,

      thanks for the really excellent link!

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Andrew P K Yap 

      Hi Again- the main conclusion from his video, was the change to Crestor (Rosuvastatin). He used 5mg low dose. Higher doses can raise blood sugar levels. 
      I am now taking it — 40mg, which was the clinical dose for plaque reduction. 
      I am going to get the CIMT test To get a baseline, then again 2x / year to see where I am at. After things look good I am going to the lower dose. 
      Now I just have to find a convenient place to do regular CIMT testing... 

      Like 1
  • All these drugs are side shows to the root cause of CVD and hypertension- insulin resistance.

     

    get your HOMA-IR score under 1.2 and you won’t need to treat symptoms 

    Like 1
  • So, you have an MD that says he added Niacin and a Statin and went on low carb and what do you know? He attributes his decrease in plaque to the prescription medicine. This is typical and why people's health are so bad. Doctor's are, for the most part.. bafoons. All he can really say is that taking that combo is what lowered his plaque... nothing else.

    From a fact stand point... there has never been a study showing cholesterol levels are related to plaque levels. So that right there probably rules out the contribution of the Statin. There are plenty of peer reviewed studies that show Niacin lowers LDL-Particle Number which is the best predictor of plaque/heart disease. There is also plenty of data showing high insulin promotes plaque.

    The real take home message is that the Niacin and low carb diet is what reversed his plaque.

    Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Randy B 

      Love your point of view an opine on this!!

      Like
    • Randy B He also made significant improvements to his insulin resistance if you listen carefully. IMO that is the most important factor in the change

      Like 1
  • BTW, I've listened to many of this Doc's videos and had lots of interaction with him. He really doesn't understand data analysis. Early in the Covid crisis I told him the models were garbage (I did a lot of modeling in my career and can detect BS). He deleted the comment and called me out in the next video.

    Like 1
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Paul Beauchemin  Dr Ford Brewer deleted your comment and called you out??

      Like
    • Fred Cloud yep

      Like
  • LDL-P testing:

    Just FYI, LEF has a blood test which includes this- (no separate test??)

    NMR LipoProfile with Lipids.  $74.25 today.

    #LC123810.

    This is LabCorp test 123810.

    Like 2
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM BobM 

      Hi Folks, Results are back from the LDL-P / NMR LipoProfile Test by LEF.

      See attached.  Overall, results were excellent, except LDL size.

      My LDL-P was very low at 504 (<1000 is considered low).

      LDL-C 49 (0-99 ideal).

      HDL-C 57

      Triglycerides, 51

      Total Cholesterol, 116

      Small LDL-P, 286 (<527 is good

      LDL SIze, 19.8 = LOW, >20.5 is desirable.

      Now this LDL size thing is complex. Here is some explanation:

       https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2014286/#:~:text=More%20recent%20studies%20using%20cryoelectron,to%20size%2C%20density%20and%20composition.

      Still, none of this makes sense to me as to a test I might use in the future to measure  some reduction of plaque or improvement in health measure. Perhaps the Crestor is working already??   Other than LDL size ( a topic by itself), how much better can my blood work get? I cannot see that LDL-P relates to my high plaque buildup, in my case.

      Comment on timing: This test was 2 months after my 2 stints. I changed to Crestor about 4 weeks ago. Also increase fish oil 1/3 about 2 weeks ago. 

      The 1-week previous testing (standard blood test) data mainly showed a large difference in Triglycerides. During that week interval, no changes in meds or diet. :

      Total Cholesterol, 119

      Triglycerides, 102  (vs 51 in the new test result).

      LDL Calc, 54

      HDL Choles, 45

       

      I am thinking the CIMT test for plaque MAY be the best tool. I hope to start a monitor for this at Mayo, after meeting my new Cardio Vascular doc in a month.

      As always, everyone's comments and opinions are welcomed!

      Like
    • BobM  Thanks for sharing . Offer the following comments. In terms of LDC-P, the lower the better as a higher value indicates greater density and thus more problems. My reading of your blood work indicates that you are doing exceptionally well. The increase in fish oil, if only for a week as I read your timeline, reduced your  triglycerides from the previous 2 values you reported as expected. This reduction is undoubtedly the reason your LDC-P is so low. Note also the reduction in your Tri/HDL ratio to less than 1.

      Attached is a overview of the various merits of the LDL-C and P that is readable by most novices like myself..

      https://www.docsopinion.com/2012/11/21/the-difference-between-ldl-c-and-ldl-p/

      Note that  reducing triglycerides is reported as one of the principal methods of reducing particle size and the mechanism involved is explained. At the bottom of the article is a section entitled "Effect of Therapies".  It does mention fish oil as one way to decrease particle size, but does not emphasize its value or the positive interaction with statins when taken together. All of this was explained to me by a Dr Davis over 20 years ago.

      In terms of plaque, my fish oil has prevented a build up over the 20 past years based on my carotid intima measurements. If you google fish oil and plaque you will see multiple papers that documents this, but I did not see any articles that document active plaque removal by fish oil. Accordingly,  I cannot comment on how to remove high levels of plaque if they exist. You had three suggestion which have considerable merit from other readers of your thread. You may want to discuss with your cardiologist after you review your carotid measurements.

      A final comment for now. Most cardiologists that I have met with over the past years do not support the use of fish oil, or if they do, only prescription Vespa, as they believe over the counter is not of any value. This comes directly from AHA who steadfastly denied until 2 years ago any  value of fish oil in terms of preventing a heart attack. It was only when the prescription form was shown to have some value that the AHA relented somewhat. Note that ~ 600,000 people a year die from ischemic heart attacks in the U.S.  This is the single greatest cause of mortality, although it is being reduced somewhat and cancer is catching up.

      Let us know what Mayo cardiologists recommend.

      Like 1
      • David H
      • David_Hanson
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

       BobM I wouldn't trust whoever put the stents in (doctor and the hospital) unless you were having a heart attack. "Although both physicians and patients continue to believe in the life-saving ability of coronary stenting, little data exist to support this belief outside of when used during an acute myocardial infarction." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5880567/

      Like
  • That's usually where I get my NMR Test done. Very convenient.

    Like
  • Thanks again for everyones help.

    Vitamin K2 MK-7 has a lot of potential to actually reduce artery plaque build up.

    Here is some good info on the mechanisms of its actions to reduce calcium, plaque and artery stiffening:

    https://nutrition.basf.com/global/en/human-nutrition/products/vitamin-k2.html

    K2 MK-7 action: "Activation of matrix Gla protein in the smooth muscle cells of arterial walls. The Matrix Gla protein binds calcium and brings it BACK into blood."

    Dose: 180 to 380 mcg daily (from several sources). LEF Super K is not enough....

    Like
  • Peter H. Howe

    why do you feel you need berries and sugar?

    unfortunately the US public has been sold a false bill of goods in the standard American diet. High carbs and polyunsaturated fat is killing people like you.

    our evolutionary design doesn’t like run non glucose. 
    this video Explores sugar

    https://youtu.be/dBnniua6-oM

    You can get to a HOMA-IR of less than 1.2 with a Low carb diet, no seed oils and sugar. It’s a matter of will and giving up the ideas pushed by the USDA

    Like
    • Paul Beauchemin Bob, could not disagree with you more.  On berries and fruits,  I reference you to Barry Sears books  "Mediterranean Zone and Resolution Zone" and  the need for polyphenols. Only way to get the amount you need is with berries and fruits, unless you drink~10 cups of coffee.  Also, multiple studies from Rush University and others document benefits of  including berries/nuts etc in diet. I tried a vegetarian diet with fruits and berries--not a lot-- and without my statin and and fish oil I would be on the other side getting reprogrammed for a new life. My HOMA score is 1.44. My TR/HDL ratio is one when I am not experimenting, and as you agree, this is one of best evaluators for health.

      I also insist on my fermented milk products for the benefits to the microbiome (really big deal right now).  I prefer these to fermented vegetables  because of the protein content. I try to get 70-80 grams of protein per day (1 gram/kg) as suggested for seniors to prevent sarcopenia. I am primarily Norwegian and am not lactose intolerant. I also eat two slightly green bananas/day  for the prebiotics.

      We are all different-- there is no universal diet that  applies  to all of us for maximum life extension. If you were to compare median life expectancy on your diet to those on the SAD diet, those on your diet would live  of 10 - 15 years longer. However, a significant number of individuals on your diet would die prematurely, while a significant number of those on the  SAD diet would out live the average person on your diet.  In an earlier E-Mail, I referenced my father-in-law who lived to 97 and ate meat and potatoes 3X per day. His wife died from melanoma at 62.  She would probably have survived today with the new cancer treatments ( See Jimmy Carter).

      My father-in-law broke his hip at 93 and spent the last three years of his life in a bed in a nursing home. Was there a testosterone deficiency that resulted in osteoporosis?

      I was personally  enthralled with the possible health benefits of the 5:2  and 16-8 diets. I was on these for the past 2 and 1/2 years.  An analyses of my blood work attached to yesterdays E-Mail to Randy indicated the diet increased my cholesterol, reduced my testosterone by 50 % and  increased my WBC.  Surprisingly, my anemia disappeared in contravention of all that I know about testosterone and anemia in senior men. However, I stopped the diets and returned to a 12:12 diet period.

      As I suggested to you in a previous E-Mail, maximum life extension in my opinion is a multifactoral undertaking. It requires vigilance on a number of fronts. I have not seen, for example,  any discussion about hormones, pro and con. I am the only one who has brought up fish oil despite the LEF's long standing incorporation of this supplement in it recommendations along with several thousand peer reviewed papers.  

      I am now excited about fisetin and started the Mayo protocol after someone on this site brought my attention to the risk assessment in Forever Health.

      Paul, If you it his far,thanks for the effort. Had to get it off my chest.

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Thanks Peter!

      On Fruits n Berries: Back about 20 years ago I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. (Due to a lousy diet and being overweight). So I undertook am effort to figure this out. The dietary changes I was told to make were not working. So I carefully tested my blood after most everything I ate. Months of work. Found ALL carbs were bad for ME. Regular consumption of Fruits definitely caused a rise in A1C. Blueberries ok in small quantities. 
      It’s hard to balance a diabetic Control diet with others.  
      Appreciate all of your thoughts!

      Like 1
    • BobM Bob I am prediabetic.  Offer the following to get most of everything you need  to start the day and it is delicious:

      It is a smoothie with following ingredients and amounts. Unless noted I buy everything at Costco.

      In blender blend  

      1 cup (225 grams) low fat yogurt  ( mine is home made)

      1 cup (140 grams) Wymans Frozen WILD blueberries (  yields ~1.2 grams of polyphenols if truly wild  and about twice the amount in farm grown)

       28 grams frozen almonds

      40 grams Gold Standard whey protein isolate

      10 grams Hersey sugar free cocoa ( yields ~ 300 mg polyphenols, cannot buy this at Costco)

      Note that the protein in the whey will blunt the sugar spike from the unfermented lactose in the yogurt and sugars in the blueberries. You get your  probiotics in the yogurt. The blueberries and cocoa give you the anthocyadins needed for neurogenesis to go along with the fish oil you are taking.  Check you blood sugars after you try and let us know . 

      Whey protein will boost your immune system. It is food of choice for those with HIV. You can verify with google search, and Life Extension has written several articles on its benefits. These include lactoferrin, immunoglobulins and cysteine to increase glutathione.

      I see you belong to Consumer Labs and you can note that almost all cocoas exceed the California food  safety standards for cadmium. If you keep your consumption to 10 grams per day you will not exceed European weekly amount considered safe. 

      A note of caution if you are taking metformin. In my case and supported by the literature, if you check, metformin ( as well as calorie restriction) will reduce your testosterone. Suggest you have your blood checked.  

      Good luck and wish you the best..

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Thank you Peter. I will definitely give it a try. 
      Testosterone: I use a compounded supplement and test regularly. Interesting that something in all the things I’m taking has raised it a lot. Ive had to cut my dosing in half. 

      Like
    • BobM Forgot to ask. Are you taking fisetin? Saw your name on the section on this topic. I started in June and found it to be unbelievable in terms of improving my color vision and strength. Will do blood work in early Sept. 

      Like 1
    • @Peter H. Howe  Peter, I am very curious about how people use fisetin. And nice to hear that fisetin works well for you. Can you share how you use fisetint? Intermittently as  a senolytic and/or continuously as geroprotector?

      Like 1
    • Staffan Olsson Steffan, I became aware of the benefits of fisetin by following the fisetin thread on this forum. A key input was information and risk assessment  on the "Forever Healthy" website that come to my attention from one of you. Thanks.

      I will be 80 in Oct and am hoping for some senescent cell removal benefits as studies indicate that it will remove 4 of the 6 different cell types. Do you know of any analytical method to document senescent cell removal ?

      The literature also indicates that it will reduce cholesterol, increase insulin sensitivity and has other benefits, so I am also looking at it as a geroprotector.  

       In terms of my treatment protocol, I started in early June of this year and take 1.5 grams of the Swanson's product on two consecutive days twice per month, except in July when I only did one.  Basically I doubled up on the Mayo frequency with the amount equal to Mayo  20 mg/kg body weight daily dosage.  I take it on an empty stomach and do not eat for 3-4 hours afterward.

      I will do an extensive blood work up at Lab Corp through LEF in early Sept. I did extensive blood analyses in mid May through LEF.  Will report the results. 

       As I reported previously, immediately after my first treatment colors (not my vision acuity) became very enhanced/vivid.  My strength increased significantly. I increased my chinups from ~ 20 to 26 and increased my pullups from ~ 22 to 28. The increase in strength and more vivid colors  continues. This has to be due to more than senescent cell removal as the benefits were almost instantaneous. Others on this forum have also reported similar benefits.

      I suspect that fisetin my be the "real deal".

      Like 3
    • Staffan Olsson Staffan, forgot to mention in previous response that literature indicates fisetin is also mTOR 1 inhibitor and activates AMPK. Please include these benefits in its value as geroprotector.

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter. Yes. Taking Fisetin about 10 months now. Pence a month dosing. 300mg/meal, 3x/day, 3 days. That seems adequate for my current body weight of 129. I tried dissolving it in things to increase bioavailability. Did not seem to be worth the effort. I’ve tried 3 different types. 
      I also take D+Q 2x/year, and rapamycin weekly.

      Like
    • BobM Thanks.

      Like
    • Peter H. Howe Peter.

      I am happy you find Fisetin useful. I do to. some seem to have the idea that you can benefit from fisetin in different ways.

       

      One way is to use the procedures that most of us seem to follow - to take fisetin intermittently and in very high doses for 2-3 days. This with the goal to eliminate as many senescent cells as possible. I do so.

       

      The other way would be to, besides the above protocoll,  include fisetin in small doses every day. Like 200 - 300 mg per day. This with the goal to protect out bodies from processes that slowly destruct the brain and from other degenerative processes. Processes that are not (only) related to the removal of senescent cells.

       

      I am not doing the above kind of intervention myself. At least not yet. Unfortuantely I lost the reference to the research that indicated that fisetin could have other positive effects besides the removal of senescent cells. If I find it I post it here in the forum.

      Like 1
    • @Staffan Olss See attached. First is the Forever Healthy website which includes a Risk Assessment  for fisetin with multiple sections focused primarily on senescent cells and Mayo Trials. You may have this. You have to scoll down to get to it. 

      The second is from a world molecules website and has some details on other benefits. This includes a section on mTOR inhibition which I found extremely interesting. 

      https://www.forever-healthy.org/home.htmlon 

      https://www.worldofmolecules.com/anti-aging-and-senolytics/fisetin-molecule.html

      Note that both websites have numerous articles, summaries and  risk assessments on other "antiaging" compounds we frequently encounter.

      On AMPK stimulation and other benefits I mentioned you can google. Most are focused on rats and other organisms. 

      I am very excited by fisetin. 

      Hope this helps

      Like 2
    • Peter H. Howe  Thank you for the reference to World of molecules. it indicate that fisetin might useful in more ways than acting as a senolytic compound.

      Like
  • BobM

     

    thank you for starting this thread it's extremely informative. 

    my question is where do you  purchase your dasatinib?

    I I know Bill faloon talked about having a compound drugstore that will make it for the life extension foundation but when I go on that LEF website I don't get anything on dasatinib itself.

     

    Bob Algie

    Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      bob algie 

      Hi Bob, I ordered some quantity last August from dropshipmd.com

      Both Dasatinib and Rapamycin. I still have quite a bit left. 

      Like
      • bob algie
      • bob_algie
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM 

       

      Thank you very much BobM. Of course don't have a prescription so I hope it'll work I hope that I can get ahold of some from dropshipMD.

       

      Regards 

      BobAlgie 613-829-2722 on WhatsApp

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 4 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      bob algie 

      I have also ordered from TheAntiAging Store, just in March this year. bob algie They are in Singapore I think. This went quite smoothly . 

      Like 1
      • Randy B
      • Randall_Bagrowski
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM  Hi bob, If you wouldn't mind can you tell me (us) what you paid for your Rapa and Dasatinib? I'm always looking to stock up on my supplies.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Randy B 

      $615 for 250 tabs of each, delivered. Both were quality product.

      Like
      • Randy B
      • Randall_Bagrowski
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM Thanks

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM Oh, you were able to purchase from theantiaging store in march? They been out of stock on both rapa and dasa for a while. I keep rechecking but such luck yet.

      Like
  • Just FYI, Found this interesting, but rather technical:


    https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2020/07/the-aging-gut-microbiome-produces-more-trimethylamine-harming-arterial-function/
     

    In here, it also talks briefly about reducing buildups. 

    Like
  • Hi Folks, 

    So I had my long awaited appointment with my new Cardiovascular Disease Prevention doctor at Mayo Clinic. A Top doc in this field. He reviewed all my data with me. Had spent some time in studying before our meeting. Said I was in the top 1% of people, given my data and what I was doing. Went on to say the most important measurement and goal for me should be reducing LDL to 30. I am now at 49. Am down from 72 a year ago. He rather summarized that all the other testing was noise. 
    He said I might need a cholesterol absorption blocking drug to get to that number.

    Ok, simple enough.

    Now today I read the very interesting paper:
    https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2020/08/reducing-ldl-cholesterol-is-the-wrong-target-for-cardiovascular-disease/

    I think this paper has a lot of merit, but tainted slightly by the expected future commercial side of the 2 research companies. Of course I will try this as soon as it’s available. 

    Still want to know how to measure progress... my new doc was not a big fan of CIMT testing. 🤨

     

    On the question of benefits from men giving blood: he said none.

    Cheers to all!

    Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM LDL 30, thats his suggestion? and he thinks everything else is irrelevant? Your doctor knows what he is talking about.

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud 

      Hi Fred, good question. I think I may not have framed this post well enough. In essence he said all my other data was very good, and the LDL was the area he wanted to concentrate on, for me.

      That and full Greek Diet every meal. Forgot to mention that.

      The cholesterol blocker Being considered was Zetia/ Ezetimibe. 

      Like
    • BobM Bob if it wasn't Mayo I would say something to the effect the recommendation was in the vain of Male Bovine Fecal Matter. 

      I f you google low cholesterol and all cause mortality you will find multiple papers that found cholesterol can be too low and result i n cancer, liver disease and dementia to name a few. To reach 30 you will have to reduce total C to about 100.

      Be careful. 

      Like 1
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM So do you have heart disease or some sort of issue that you are trying to resolve like a bad cimt test or high calcium score or is this strictly prevention?

      Like
    • BobM LDL doesn’t tell you what you need to know.  Nee CIMT or CAC. If either is getting worse doesn’t matter what your cholesterol is. 
       

      plus low LDL is associated with higher all cause mortality. My dad was on statins and died of sepsis - a common outcome of low LDL

      Like 1
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 3 mths ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      BobM The mayo clinic operates in a very traditional orthodox conservative antiquated fashion and these kind of docs usually are operating on 15-20 year old data. Dont be fooled because it is the mayo clinic or he is a top doc, they are behind. If you want some good information just do your own research. Read track your plaque by dr davis and other information out there.

      Like 2
      • David H
      • David_Hanson
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud Whoever (doctor and institution) put in his stents did him no favor.  Stents only help if there is a mycardial infarction.  Due to financial considerations and just plain tradition, the medical industry just keeps doing what has been shown not to work.

      Like
    • Fred Cloud Fred you are full of it with respect to your comments on Mayo. My wife was rescued by Mayo Docs  from procedures undertaken by numerous Chicago area physicians. Suggest you take trip to Rochester Mn., and talk to numerous individuals in the waiting rooms of the Mayo facilities who will relay to you the same message that I just relayed to you about Mayo rescuing their family members.

      I was also surprised by what the Mayo Doc in Az told Bob and agree with you on the Davis book. As I told Bob in earlier comments, I am alive today because of my visits to Davis in Wis. based on articles in wrote for LEF after I had emergency bypass over 25 years ago.

      Bob if you are reading this,  and as I told you before, go fish oil and statins and thank you Dr. Davis for putting me on the fish oil/statin path . Fish oil is miraculous for those of us who are prone to ischemic heart attacks. and is still dismissed by the majority of cardiologists. I recently was looking for a cardiologist after my cardiologist retired. One I visited said fish oil was worthless. Anther told my wife she could stop taking it.

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 3 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe I am not saying every doc at mayo is worthless, sorry, didnt mean to imply that, I mean just in this category of cardio prevention they seem very behind and are operating under research that seems very very old and outdated which you seem to agree with me on. If the mayo cardio guy is their best and is only looking at ldl and thinks the lower the better and is ignoring particle size and doesnt believe in CIMT testing then it's obvious he isn't anywhere near current with research.

      Like 1
    • Fred Cloud Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you on the specific Doc. Since seeing Bob's E-mail, I am toying with the idea of sending letter to head of Cardio at Mayo in Rochester ( know Bob was treated in AZ) and suggest that Mayo take up fish oil/statin research or summarize existing information and develop protocol that incorporates both in treatment to prevent ischemic heart attacks in those of us who are vulnerable.

      There are 600,000 deaths/year in U.S. due to ischemic heart attacks and most are probably preventable if statin/fish oil therapy is applied. 

      Note my existing cardiologist will not prescribe over the counter fish oil even though it is 10 X cheaper and contains both EPA and DHA.  My wifes cardiologist believes that all fish oil  it is of little or no value. The first cardiologist I visited after my mine retired stated that the only reason I use fish oil is because I am a fish biologist. This clinic (North Shore) is affiliated with Mayo which is why I went there. I have mitral valve prolapse due to whooping cough I contracted in mid 1940's and need to be close in case something happens. My retired cardiologist was also of the opinion that fish oil was of little value. I stopped seeing Dr. Davis about 15 years ago as he was not convenient and the cholesterol problem was resolved..

      I do not blame the cardiologists position on fish oil as they are only parroting AHA  and do not want to be held responsible.  Note AHA just accepted prescription fish oil in terms of its ability to prevent heart attacks ~2 years ago after the paper on Vasepa. 

      I use Consumers Lab analyses to make my  fish oil selection. In this regard the latest post did not contain my current choice (Natures Bounty) that I selected based on their analyses ~4 years ago. In this regard the most recent analyses did not contain an analyses of Natures Bounty but did for Life Extension and Kirkland both of  which passed. 

      Lets see what happens. If I prepare letter will send all a copy.

      Bunch of good posts for Bob. My opinion Bob based on several papers is the best indicator of your treatments is the triglycerides/HDL ratio. A ratio of one essentially means there is no probability of an ischemic heart attack. As Ii recall from your blood test you were below one.

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter, thanks for all the great advise. I’m doing the higher dose fish oil for the past month or two— since you suggested it. 1500 mg/ meal (3x/day).

      I was at 500mg/meal.

      Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe I take 1,500mg of a vascepa equivalent supplement. How much do you take?

      Like
    • Fred Cloud Fred, I am going to get a little wordy in an effort to justify my actions. 

       I take 3 Natures Bounty capsules 2X/day. Each capsule has 647 mg of EPA and 253 mg of DHA for a total omega fatty acid of 5.4 grams for the 6 capsules per day. The oil is molecularly distilled to remove contaminants.

      I also take 10 mg Lipitor/day with the goal of maintaining a Triglyceride/ HDL ratio of one. This ratio will prevent an ischemic heart attack and plaque buildup and is indicative of optimum LDL-P.  I take the amount recommended by Barry Sears and by Dr. Davis for those of us who have cardiac problems. At this level and with the lipitor my Total C is ~150 and my triglycerides and HDL about 70 each. There is some variation. This was worked out by Dr.  Davis 20 years ago. There is no question in my mind that I am here today (80 in Oct.) in good health thanks to LEF and Dr. Davis after my emergency bypass 26 years ago. I came across Dr. Davis in some of his writings for the LEF magazine.

      Without the Lipitor my Total C approaches 250 and LDL-C ~140 based on 2 year study of myself I conducted about 2 years ago. So I have to have the Lipitor. I did the study to see if it would increase testosterone as I am hypogonadal. It did not. Some of the literature indicates that one of the problems with lowering cholesterol too much is that it decreases steroids as cholesterol is basis for steroids.

      Note that Vesepa does not contain DHA which is critical to prevent brain shrinkage and depression and to promote neurogenesis among some of its benefits. You can verify DHA benefits with google search. 

      Cost /bottle at Costco when on sale is $15.00 for a bottle of 130 capsules. They go on sale every other month.

      I made this choice based on analysis by Consumer Labs ~ 4 years ago. Prior to that, I used the LEF's mega EPA/DHA. Natures Bounty is less expensive and more convenient.

      However, as I indicated in previous post, Consumer Labs did not do an analysis of Natures Bounty in its last fish oil analyses a couple of months ago. They found that one of LEF's brands (not mega EPA/DHA which they did not analyze) and Costco's Kirkland brand as most cost efficient and highest quality. 

      Again, I apologize for the wordiness.  

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      hey Peter, what do you think about the comment in ConsumerLabs Q/A that “long term use of fish oil in doses over 2000 of EPS/dha may suppress the immune system. “

      Like
    • BobM Bob,thanks for the heads up.  I literally have no idea. It was my understanding that fish oil improves the immune system. I will have to investigate. I would never  never stop my fish oil. I try to keep my immune system boosted with DHEA, whey protein, probiotics, zinc, NAC and  a few other supplements/foods. 

      Like
    • Peter H. Howe Well Bob you kind of ruined my day. I followed up with ref in Consumer Lab and googled the issue and came up with following extensive review article:   ttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6834330/#B18-ijms-20-05028b.

      Most of the googled paper is above my pay grade but it does conclude, along with the Consumer Lab citation, that fish oil can decrease immunity, but with all things biological, its complicated.

      In my case, I will continue at my current use ( 5 gm/day)as I have been taking for over 20 years and have not experienced  any major infections. I do check my CBC and immune cell counts at least a couple of times per year and they are in normal range. This also includes the N/L and L/M ratios that I calculate myself from the CBC reports. 

      There is no question that fish oil does depress inflammation and proinflammatory transcription factors and cytokines. I have no indication of any arthritis or joint problems and the literature supports this benefit.

      Thanks for the heads up will keep my "eyes open".

      Like 1
    • BobM Bob, sent my second response to your question to myself. See above thread. 

      Like
  • Hi Folks,

    Yesterday I had a nice meeting with my naturopathic Dr. She is excellent. We discussed the past 6 months and all the labs etc.

    She observed from my NMR blood tests, that my LDL size 19.8nm) was quite small and dense, and noted this was not good for my CVD (although all my other data was very good). You can have lots of large fluffy LDL - no problem. But this small stuff related to plaque buildup. Geese, you would have thought my 3 other MD doctors would have picked up on this!

    Her suggested intervention for this was high dosing of niacin. Up to 2000 mg/day, taken together with fish oil.  Easy enough!

    Like
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      BobM  Good to hear. I am glad to hear you found a doc that is savvy in NMR and particle size etc. I am not surprised your other 3 MD docs didnt catch it, they usually only look for things that they can prescribe a certain drug for and since there isnt a drug approved to treat particle size then they dont run or know how to interpret the tests. This puts MD's in a weird narrow way of looking at things. Naturopaths have more freedom and interventions like supplements and often have broader more up to date info than alot of MD's for preventing disease.

      Have you looked into taking tocotrienols ?

      http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/bierenbaum.html

      Like
    • BobM Bob, be careful with niacin as it can cause liver problems.  You are taking a lot of supplements based on your last communication, and these could contribute with niacin to a liver enzyme issue. Suggest you check after you have been doing it for a while. Current CBC/Chemistry bloodtest at LabCorp  through LEF is $28.50. Just ordered one myself.

      I tried niacin when I first tried to grapple with my heart disease over 20 years ago  and my enzymes skyrocketed. 

      I looked up the last blood test you took and your triglycerides dropped considerably from previous tests . Was this after you started on increased fish oil intake?  Your triglycerides/HDL ratio was almost one which suggests that LDL-P should have been on "fluffy" side.

      Also keep in mind that low total C contributes to increased mortality from all causes as I and others have pointed out to you. Increased mortality begins when Total C drops below ~160. I have to go to 140-150 to stay at the one ratio. I do this due to the  severe potential of an ischemic heart attack in my case. 

      Admire your perseverance, and good luck. .  

      Like
    • BobM Bob, the following is my second set of comments to your blood test and  naturopath meeting. Your blood test indicated that you have an optimum LDL-P value, but the particles themselves were of the dense type ( Type B in the jargon).

      I was always of the opinion that LDL- P and particle size were closely correlated, namely a low number of  LDLP  particles also indicates fluffy particle size (Type A) . This assumption was based on my own blood work over 20 years ago.

      This is apparently not the case for everyone and some of us with an optimum LDL-P still have dense or small LDL- C particles.   The attached review summary of the TG/HDL ratios discusses this  issue and provides a reference that approximately 20 % of us with a low TG/HDL ratio and low LDL-P number still  have type B particle size.  I have attached a second summary from a Dr Attia pod cast that also indicates the same. You have to track the dialogue to the end to see the final conclusion. But he says, as does the first paper, that the LDL-P number is far more important. 

      Sorry about the confusion I may have caused. Because of my own proclivity to a heart attack, I had to do some research for myself to check my own assumptions.

      The bottom line is that a TG/HDL rsatio of 1 indicates virtually no chance of a heart attack and numerous papers document this. It also indicates that you have your insulin resistance under control. 

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter, these 2 references were a great read!

      I do appreciate you taking the time to share this!

      Like
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