Fisetin experimentation one year (reposted as topic for info purposes)

Hello everyone I wanted to make my first post here as I have been doing a fisetin routine for a year now just about and I have results that are not placebo and very profound. I honestly do not know if this is the senylotic effect or some kind of interaction with fisetin in other ways. 

 

To get it out of the way, I will give the fast and short version. I am taking Swanson’s Fisetin. I take around 2g a day for 3 days( now 2.5g). I repeat this for 3 or 4 times with varying intervals (I was trying to find optimal intervals).  

 

My my first regimen was 3 days treatment with a 2 week delay, then a 3 week delay, then a 4 week delay, then a 2 month delay. I am now convinced a 3 week delay is the minimal amount of time you want taking this the way I am, though I will continue with 4 week delay for safety sake and because of my own observations. 

 

So results. Well I feel like this must play on hormone levels in the short term. Immediately after starting a 3 day regimen, usually on day 2 or 3 I feel strong as hell. In particular my legs are tight and super strong. My muscles in general are firmer and overall strength is amazing. My mind is clear, thinking concise anddynamic. I feel more dominant, self confident, and aggressive. Libido is enhanced as well. This all led me to believe that this acts as a testosterone mimic or elevates testosterone in the blood which is why I cycle monthly and then take a few months off every so often. 

 

i can tell you that at the age of 43 this makes me legitimately remember what early 20s feels like. The effects of one 3 day regimen last strongly for 2 weeks and even on for 4 weeks. In particular during week one and two I was amazed at the amount of pure emotion and clarity of the world around me. I could hear and appreciate sounds and colors seemed more vibrant. Mentally I am on overdrive with super memory and crystal clear logical thinking. I remember the first time I took this I was shocked. I was in a cafe just looking at a coke I had bought in a glass amazed at how more real and present it looked. A small thing but it was profound just how the world seemed more alive. It literally felt like going back in time 20 years. 

 

So for long term effects. A stronger posture, better muscle tone, improved gum health, vastly more energy, in fact this has become all the norm after around 8 months of this. Many of the effects I described in the first two weeks following a 3 day regimen do taper off to an extent, but never completely. 

 

As far as side effects there has not been anything thus far. When you are taking the 3 day dose you might get amped up a little jittery but that gives way quickly after the last dosage and it normalizes into a even effect that is positive in nature. I was very concerned about hair loss as I could not believe how impactful this was. But I have noticed no hair loss at all. I cycle it with a 3 or 4 week break to ensure that there is no negative effect on hair or otherwise. With a two week interval I had some scalp itchiness. That was enough to back me off to to four week intervals.

 

I honestly think that most of what I experienced is not the senylotic effect. It’s way too fast and profound. But I have no ill effects and feel incredible. And overall I have a youthful vigor and look and feel younger. I think a senylotic evaluation, as far as a laymen just observing himself goes ,can only really be done after 2 years or so. However the initial results ( especially gum health) and from what else I can observe are overwhelmingly positive. 

 

I can tell you that this does have an affect and it is profound and noticeable. How much of this is hormone I do not know. But I have other improved health as well, however it’s always tricky to quantify this objectively yourself sometimes. 

 

Good luck on your experiments. Let me know if this has the same effect for you. I just bought Swanson’s with nouvestein. Nothing fancy. Cheap and on amazon. 

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  • As I have noticed from reading forums for years, there are significant differences in how people respond to the same substance or drug. It is rather astounding! Some drugs have shown comments that range from "really worked great for me" to "the worst thing I ever took". I guess that is why we are all here reporting results of our experiments. I wonder how much of this is due to the placebo effect. I have read that in some people/cases long lasting improvement for a certain condition (such as knee pain) can be as high as 50% using just a placebo. This is true even if people were told beforehand that it was just a placebo!!

    That is just weird.

    There was great story on NPR about this in the past month or so. Can't find it now.

    Like 1
    • Dean W. yes, the mind is very powerful. I discount all the anecdotes about feeling stronger, more alert, more energy as purely placebo. Give me several blood tests that show an improvement before I'll believe.

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      • garland
      • garland
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      Paul Beauchemin Well once you feel it than you will believe it..You feel more alive...if it is a placebo then bring it on but i have never been able to get this by positive thinking. .. i think life style makes a difference as well... I do meditation which increases telomeres length appreciably also do organic green juice etc.... Pain in my prostate is reduced for sure.... not sure that can be placebo based. Also my yoga is better than ever and I have been doing it for 40 years.....I have never been able to stretch like this and I am not even straining.... if this is placebo then we should all be in this place

      Like 3
  • Paul, I agree on discounting most of those instant effects as placebo.

    Just read more on Life Extensions's new product, bio-available fisetin. They claim the human digestive tract converts fisetin into a  useless form and that some manufacturer has discovered that a natural fiber extract from the herb fenugreek prevents this. The study is not published yet and is written by the manufacturer:

    Akay. A cross over pilot pharmacokinetic study of fisetin 1000mg and formulated fisetin 200mg administered in a single dose to healthy volunteers. Manufacturer’s study (in press for future publication) . 2020.

    Like 2
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
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      Dean W. All this fuss over fisetin availability doesnt seem justified. People are taking it as a senolytic and getting results, so there doesnt seem to be a need for fixing a problem that doesnt exist. Now if people werent getting results, fine, but that isnt the case.

      Like 2
    • Fred Cloud And all. Agree with you Fred. In my case Swanson's fisetin following  Mayo protocol works. It was not placebo as my chin ups increased immediately from 20 to 26. Pull ups went from 22 to 28. This was not "feeling good" effect and is as much as a biomarker as any blood test. The increase was immediate following the first two day   There was no improvement in my Levin Pheno or DNA m from blood test before and after.  I cannot quantify improvement in vision color improvement but it happened.

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      • Michael
      • Michael.1
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      Dean W. Can anyone say rapamycin cream?     LOL     If ever a larger con game existed, perpetuated by otherwise "credentialed physicians" on this board, I have yet to see it: precisely, before and after examples.

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      • Dean W.
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      Fred Cloud  Fred, I have read many more comments that people had no noticeable changes, including me. The reasons for that are not known but chemistry shows the solubility in water is only 0.151 mg per ml. Not much. It is better in alcohol but not so good that you would not get totally drunk trying to dissolve a gram of it. I can't argue with chemistry. Senolytic effects would not happen overnight but would take weeks to months.

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      • Fred Cloud
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      Dean W. taking weeks to months to show? I dont think so. Why do you say that?

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      • Larry
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      Michael I'm trying it. I've used it for about 3 weeks on the back of one hand. No difference so far but I imagine if it works it will take months. Unfortunately, my hands are not very aged so it will be subtle. I'll send a pic out in the future and let others decide if they can see a difference. 60 male. 

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      • Michael
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      Larry Thank you!

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      • garland
      • garland
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      Larry  Since your hands are not very aged you may not notice it...it takes a long time to get results...

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      • garland
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      Michael What are you talking about con job? I sent you to all my posts with Dr mark who graciously is sharing with us his experiences with his patients and on himself and his family on the Topical Rapamycin cream. In the series of posts he talked about a published study on this topical cream which was rather remarkable in that not only were wrinkles visually reduced markedly but also the senolytic cells were almost all removed from the skin. Granted it took 8 months to complete.  Pretty amazing study as they also had photos. So when you talk about con jobs a published study is far from a con job. Dr Mark is very busy and gets nothing from posting and so your judgements do him a great disservice. Personally he has been a great help to me and I have been able to help others from what I learned. We are not on here to send you photos.... nor to convince to try anything. But simply to share what we experience and hopefully help others in their journey. 

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      • Michael
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      garland You're right. I should have not chosen that phrase. I appreciate all the information you've passed on as well. 

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      • Michael
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      garland HOWEVER. I do believe if people on this forum are going to make claims about successes they ABSOLUTELY need to provide evidence, especially a licensed MD. And, I can guarantee you I'm busier than anyone on this forum but would still take the time to provide evidence along with claims of success. I believe I posted blood work from several months ago openly asking for feedback. That's what the spirit of the community should be; TOTAL transparency - Not selective bs.

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    • Michael A licensed MD? Greatest danger to ones health in many cases is a licensed MD. A Harvard study several years ago concluded that the greatest contribution to premature death is our medical community - Drs., hospitals, and pharmaceuticals.

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      • Michael
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      Peter H. Howe Couldn't agree more. That these sheep bow to them is nauseating.

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  • I'm skeptical that taking a round of fisetin helps doing more pushups. A senolytic is killing off a few senescent cells. Probably should reduce inflammation markers over time. Instant results? What mechanism of action would explain that other than placebo?

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      • Fred Cloud
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      Paul Beauchemin Take a look at the original post at the top of the page from David. He talked at length about the strength gains he got from senolytics and theorized that it boosts testosterone. I did some research and confirmed that they have found andropause or age related test decline to senescent cells and posted the study.

      study showing senolytic treatment reverses age related testosterone decline by killing off sensecent cells in the teste leydig cells.

      FOXO4-DRI(senolytics) alleviates age-related testosterone secretion insufficiency by targeting senescent Leydig cells in aged mice.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7053614/

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      • Michael
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      Fred Cloud https://researchpeptides.net/product/peptides/foxo4-dri-10mg/       "*Includes one 30mL Bacteriostatic Water with orders over $300.00"  LOL

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      • Fred Cloud
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      Michael yeah, I know, expensive. I think if fisetin is boosting testosterone then you can substitute it instead. Much, much cheaper and safer. I am tempted to try it just to see what happens though.

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      • Michael
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      Fred Cloud I think I might buy it as a Christmas present to myself.  But I'll make sure to post before and after, "'Scanners' head exploding" photos for the group. That's the stuff referenced in the article though, correct?

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      • Fred Cloud
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      Michael yes, thats the stuff. Just a thought but if you are going to buy it why not wait until you have experience with lots of rounds of other senolytics like fisetin and then you would have more experience to compare and assess if it is any better or more effective and therefore worth it. Also, with other rounds of senolytics before you might be able to clear away the low hanging fruit senescent cells with cheaper senolytics first and then bring out the more exotic guns later.

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      • Michael
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      Fred Cloud Good thoughts. BOY there's a ton of potentially good things on that site. The Cosmetic Peptides section in particular.

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      • Fred Cloud
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      Michael yeah, I have bought lots of stuff from them over the years. Mainly cjc-1295 combos and bpc-157 thymosin alpha 1 etc, but actually none of the cosmetic peptides though. This is the main site you actually buy from though https://www.peptidesciences.com/

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      • garland
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      Fred Cloud yes I have received similar results as David but I do notice that it takes a few days for me to get that burst of energy. In fact I notice some tightness' in my chest while I am doing the senolytics ....so I always go more modertly  when i walk while doing the senolytics . When I do senolytics  I never strain on any excersize.  I took it a few days ago and yesterday I had a burst of walking that reminded me of my walking 20 years ago. I could feel immense power. But the real changes that astound me is that my body has become incredibly limber. I am getting into yoga posses that I have never been able to do and I have done yoga for over 40 years. My limber body is itself a miracle and not one that I expected. I do not think that is due to placebo... I started noticing this about 6 months ago. I have done Fisetin and Quercetin over 15 to 20 times.... and Dasatinib maybe 8 times plus or minus. But I live a healthy life style as well. My prostate always bothers me less after doing senolytics  which is a God send. 

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      • Fred Cloud
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      garland wow, thats an impressive amount of senolytic rounds. How long have you been doing these, do you do it once a month? I have found myself feeling more limber after taking rapamycin.

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    • Fred Cloud this paper doesn't claim that taking a senolytic raises testosterone

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    • Fred Cloud Peptides seem like a very interesting area to explore. I don't know how to create a whole new category on the home page, but I hope a moderator can do it so a discussion can develop. For example, thymosin alpha-1 may help regenerate the some immunity

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      • Fred Cloud
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      Paul Beauchemin Huh? Yes, the study does say that senolytics increase testosterone

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      • garland
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      Fred Cloud Yes I try to take it every 3 or 4 weeks..... I like the feeling that I get with it. Makes me feel younger. Is it a placebo... maybe but the power of the placebo is huge why not harness it with positive affirmations and like life more fully that way. however I have taken many such nutrients with amazing claims and this is one of the very very few that actually delivered something to me that i can feel strong results from. And the less pain in my prostate is huge as well. I can not tell you how many things I have tried to help my prostate but not much worked at all. So why does fisetin etc work so well as a placebo? LOL... maybe because it is not a placebo. Also I had no idea that it would help my prostate nor did I have any idea that it would help me do better in Yoga poses. So hard to assign placebo to unknown results.... 

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  • so, if someone claims testosterone is increased via fisetin, take a blood test and show results. Guessing is for the artists, not the scientists

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    • Paul Beauchemin Paul, have blood test before and after starting fisetin. Blood test on May 13 and Nov 5. Started Mayo protocol  on June 8  (1.5 gm, 2 consecutive days), and repeated 6 times before Nov test. Total T on May 13 was 197  (Free T was 11.1) and it was 199 ( Free T was 13.0)  on Nov 5. I am  hypogonadal and use 4 mg Androderm patches daily.  My free T is in normal range due to use of DHEA and high dose fish oil. 

      There was also no differences in Levin age markers on the two test dates except that I was a year older on input.

      As I said  before in previous post, there was a significant impact on color vision and marked increase in chinups and pullups. This was immediate and not a placebo effect. The increase in pullups and chinups did not increase after first increase but remained at the same increased level.  My opinion is that there may be an effect on mitochondria but I don't know. Did find papers on improved vision attributed to fisetin but explanation and biochemistry was above my paygrade.  

      Mayo is doing 3, phase 2 trial on seniors. Must be a reason.  

      e

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    • Peter H. Howe so no effect on T nor age markers.

      The mind is quite powerful. I can use hypnosis to get you to double your chin ups!

      still skeptical about senolytics since no real life extension benefit has been demonstrated. Maybe they'll pan out.

      Everyone is entitled to spend their money where they want of course.

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    • Paul Beauchemin You are stretching credibility. If your comment on the power of hypnosis was correct ( and it is not) , everyone could run a 4 minute mile. To cure any disease, all one would have to do is visit a psychotherapist. There are placebo effects, but these are limited. 

      Note, I did not attribute my personal experience with fisetin to its senescent cell removal which is well documented.  The effects were immediate and it is "unlikely" that the increase in strength, endurance and improvements in color vision could be attributed that quickly to senescent cell removal.

      Mayo Clinic studies are based on placebo effects? Doubt it. 

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    • Peter H. Howe Q.E.D.  No evidence to support any of the claims is substantiated.

      My point has never been about whether or not fisetin will or won't be an effective anti-aging supplement. It has been to counter the wild claims being made in this thread about supposed benefits. These claims are terribly irresponsible to people researching anti-aging.

      Claims that fisetin improves testosterone, increases pull ups or better color are junk science.

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      • garland
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      Paul Beauchemin I am not sure that self reports are considered pure research per se. However many look at self reports as valid ways of discovering avenues to do productive research. For sure in human studies self reports are considered as valuable ways to discover information. It is a great start.. but these forums are interesting and help us understand what maybe happening within the parameters of self reported effects of Senolytics.  It is not junk science because no one is saying that this is a regular study with adequate controls etc. To be quite candid with you there is not any real science that can be done on human beings in real life situations. We do correlation research then compare to animal models . This model is the way the research was done on cigarette smoking to prove causality etc.  Without the animal research it would have been difficult to assign causality.  So human research for the most part is done with correlational type research which is difficult to find causation. Too many factors influence blood test results to really give us much information. However with large sample sizes this tends to give us patterns that can be very helpful to assigning possible causality. So animal models are very helpful here in assigning some credibility to the correlation research done on humans. So I would say that this forum can provide us with some meaningful information but not true scientific research results. 

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    • Paul Beauchemin   Thanks for the comment. I will keep it in mind when I submit my fisetin order to Swanson. I waste a lot of money as it costs me ~ $12 /month. Must drive the pharmaceutical people nuts.  

       I enjoy doing my 26 chinups and improved color vision.

       In terms of Q.E.D. You might want to review some of Fred's references and those in the  Forever Healthy Risk assessment. Throw in the Mayo studies. 

      I seem to recall that you expressed similar comments about statins. I attribute my 27 years of healthy survival after an emergency bypass to a statin ( and fish oil.).The probability of surviving this long after a bypass without another intervention is is less than 5%. Guess my N=1 doesn't count on this issue either. 

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Peter H. Howe As usual, the truth is somewhere in between. Fisetin apparently does NOT boost T but improves exercise performance - most likely, due to improved mitochondrial health, removing dysfunctional senescent cells and thus creating a healthier and more youthful cellular milieu. That is  to say, it works but often not the way we think it does. Another point is the existing cellular burden -  someone in their 40s with barely any would not notice huge improvements while someone 60+ most likely will. So there are a lot variables to account for the different user experiences.

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    • aribadabar Truth is truth-- it does not change. The problem is that biology has a very wide 95 % confidence level. What can save me can kill you. Statins are an example. 

      Your point on age as a major issue in that some experience enhancement in some physical functions and not others do not may be why I experienced what I experienced with fisetin. Thanks for pointing it out. I am 80 yo.

      I am somewhat confused by your testosterone comment. I specifically documented to Paul B. that my testosterone level was not affected based on blood work after 6 months of fisetin usage. . The same was true for Levine phenotype and DNAm age biological estimates.

       I am not sure, with long term use of fisetin, that testosterone level will not be increased if senescent Leydig cells are removed in the testes. I don't know and others have speculated that this may occur. 

      I indicated to Paul B. that it was my opinion that my almost instantaneous increase in strength, endurance and improved color vision was "probably" due to mitochondrial enhancement as you suggested.  I do not know for sure what factors were involved in the improvements but something happened. In my opinion it was unlikely due to senescent cell removal. This process will ultimately take place based on the literature, but as of yet I do not have any method to document this on a personnel basis. 

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      • Fred Cloud
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      aribadabar You are saying someone in their 40's would barely notice improvement, but the topic starter david c is 43 years old and is describing in detail that he has a huge improvement along with other people that have posted that they have noticeable effects in their 40's from senolytics. So your theory doesnt seem to be the case.

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Fred Cloud I would like to see his entire regimen before reaching any conclusions. All the improvements mentioned are impossible by fisetin alone. So yeah, I don't buy his version of events.

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      • Fred Cloud
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      aribadabar Like I said, he isnt the only one saying they are getting improvements on senolytics in their 40's. Are you going to reject all the others too?

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Fred Cloud If they ALSO do TRT, HGH and all other exotic interventions that they fail to mention, yeah, I will reject that fisetin is responsible for these improvements. It is good but not THAT good.

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    • aribadabar Aribadabar, I have been doing HRT ( Testosterone) DHEA-S, pregnenolone for the past 20+ years. Do not do HGH as my IGF-1 is marginally OK.

      The use of these steroids are not responsible for the almost instantaneous increase in the benefits I realized in June, 2020 after my first use of fisetin following the Mayo protocol.  I think your initial consideration that the benefits were due to some kind of mitochondria enhancement is the best "guess". I also think it was unlikely the initial benefits were due to elimination of senescent cells as these benefits occurred within a day after completing my first dose (comment for Fred). This is not to say that fisetin does not remove senescent cells. It certainly does based on the literature which indicates that it can remove 4 of the 6 main types of senescent cells. 

      It is also a mTOR1 inhibitor which causes me some concern at my age. If I remove a large number of senescent cells in the interest of alleviating senior frailty, there is limited data to suggest that this may not be advisable in that I may need mTOR1. There is beginning to be a  limited number of publications which suggest this may be the case and I may need mTOR.  

      As a great mind once said: everything changes and nothing changes.

      Have a nice holiday.

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Peter H. Howe Hey Peter, the opposite is true about the mTOR signal - it increases with age and thus needs to be suppressed more which is why senior people have been taking higher Rapamycin doses than the younger ones. You do need SOME mTOR but without inhibition is much more than you really need for healthy aging and you definitely don't need an mTOR boost.

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    • @aribadabaYour post is accurate up to a point.

      There is literature to suggest that inhibition is not good in old age.   See attached. Note authors recommend stimulating mTOR, in part with omega 3 fatty acid to correct sarcopenia. There are more examples if you search.

      @https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40520-019-01146-1r 

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Peter H. Howe They hypothesize that Omega-e FFAs increase mTOR and that's how they try to explain the anabolic effect. Looking at the papers they base that HYPOTHESIS on, none of them cite mTOR as the reason. I.e. it's a guess, not a scientific fact. You do need some mTOR for muscle building/maintenance and to avoid sarcopenia no doubt but saying that it is done via mTOR activation due to Omega-3 supplementation is a stretch at this point. Protein consumption does boost mTOR, O3 one - not really.

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Peter H. Howe For overall health , it is best to have short mTOR bursts during muscle building exercises as opposed to constant strong mTOR signalling which is unquestionably deleterious.

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    • aribadabar It is a point and it is really.. As I said, there are multiple  papers on this issue. Attached is another one dealing with exercise, stimulation of mTOR and eliminating frailty. It has multiple references on this topic. There are many more, some of which deal with protein as indicated in the first paper along with O3.

      https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.01266.2009.

      Point is stimulation of mTOR for treatment of frailty in seniors is beneficial.

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
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      Peter H. Howe And I don't reject that point, I just go further into its nuanced understanding i.e. the mTOR activation needs to be pulsatile, not continuous, to get the benefit without the detriment.

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    • aribadabar Now we are going to discuss strong vs weak? What about protein in seniors. Again increase consumption from ~.5 gm in middle age  to 1-2gm/kg to stimulate mTOR and muscle growth. Give you some papers on this also. 

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      • aribadabar
      • aribadabar
      • 4 mths ago
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      Peter H. Howe It's a tradeoff. Frailty vs. inflammation/oncogenesis/oncoproliferation. One has to decide what's more important for them. For myself, frailty is of lower priority to the other issues.

      Like
  • David C Not only is fisetin a senolytic but it also acts as an MTor inhibitor.

    So this may explain the profound effects you are getting beyond what may be explained from strictly senolytic activity.

    Not sure how it compares to rapamycin in its ability to inhibit mtor but it would be an interesting study to compare them.

    Have you tried rapamycin to compare the effects?

    Inhibition of Akt/mTOR signaling by the dietary flavonoid fisetin

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23293889/

    Fisetin regulates obesity by targeting mTORC1 signaling

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23517912/

    studies have suggested that fisetin inhibits mTOR activity through direct binding

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep24933

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      • garland
      • garland
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      Fred Cloud Wow amazing stuff... might explain my placebo results.... LOL

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  • So, my 2 day of 1.5g of bulk fisetin extract, 98% from cotinus, Chinese origin. Yellow-brown powder.

     Tried the buttermilk, yes, it dissolves quite well, after waiting 1.5hr and some occasional stirring.

     

    I am 33 years old, with hypertension and on valsartan.

     

    During the first day, no side fx noted. Blood pressure systolic around 7-9 units lower than usual hour after taking it, dia 5-6 lower, so no significant interaction.

     

    A bit up and hard to fall asleep, but can be placebo.

     

    On the next day, notably more stamina and energy, very energetic and active physically. Like on caffeine. A bit elevated pulse. Definitely not a placebo, as I've experimented with some other substances which claim energy boost, no such result there.

     

    Did not notice any dry mouth or anything of a sort.

     

    Will continue for two more days.

     

    As I am relatively young, senolytic effect was not a main priority, but mainly - chemopreventive (I am a smoker), improving heart condition and overall health, have some bowel issues. Also, a bit of rejuvenation expected as well, as after 30, you anyway start notice some aging effects.

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      • JGC
      • JGC
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Andrew Whitfield Did I

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      • JGC
      • JGC
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      JGC 

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      • JGC
      • JGC
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Andrew Whitfield 

      I am doubtful if the Fisetin powder actually dissolved in buttermilk, as opposed to going into suspension.  The distinction makes a big difference in whether it was present in good concentration later in your bloodstream.

      Like
    • JGC 

      Well, maybe the suspension case. I am no expert. What I was able to observe is that no powder or chunks remained in my cup and buttermilk became yellowish.

       

      About the bloodstream concentrations - can you be more specific, like what is what in each case, and suggest your own alternative or better approach, if any?

      Like
    • JGC 

      If you have any good advice and relevant experience to share, it is appreciated

      Like
      • JGC
      • JGC
      • 4 mths ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Andrew Whitfield 

          The problem is that flavenoids like Fisetin, Quercetin, and Curcumin are fairly insoluble in water, and only slightly more soluble in oils.  (They are more soluble in ethyl alcohol, but you would have to imbibe a dangerously large amount of alcohol to get a suitably high level dose of the flavenoid.)  There are some work-arounds for this problem, but none are easily achieved.  I tried taking 10 caps of LifeExtension's Bio-Fisetin (which is supposed to be 25 times more bioavailable).  However, based on my body's lack of response, I am not convinced that it delivered the dose level needed to clear senescent cells.

          The alternative is to just take a big enough dose of Fisetin to get a senolytic-level concentration in the blood stream.  My wife and I have done that several times by stirring 2 grams of Fisetin powder into a jigger glass of olive oil which has previously been warmed by 1 minute in the microwave.  This produces a mustard-colored suspension.  We drink it and scoop the residue out of the glass with bread fragments.  I guess there are some oils in buttermilk, but the main liquid is water and I would not expect it to dissolve as large a fraction of the Fisetin as warm olive oil would.

      Like 2
    • JGC Thanks for the tip! I will try your approach with oil on my next round, after a month.

       

      For now, I've completed 4 days of 1.5g. On the last one I've tried putting it into 35% dairy cream. Visually it dissolved pretty well.

       

      Not much effects to report this time.

       

      Ordered some more 99% from AliExpress. Risking a bit regarding the quality, but 50g is just 22 dollars. And they put screens of CoA there, kind of.

      Like
  • So I will add one more thing. My sugar cravings have completely vanished. I was eating a lot of sweets routinely. And it was noticeable early on but I never gave it much thought. However I don't crave sweets anymore. And my health overall has improved. I think I had the beginnings of diabetes. And this stuff got rid of a lot of the senescent cells that are postulated to cause diabetes. 

    Like 2
  • Guys, anyway knows a way to easily distinguish what is fisetin and what is not?

    I've ordered some with a Chinese supplier. One was obviously a scam, with some curcuma taste.

     

    Now I've got the other. It is fine yellow powder with a bit greenish hue, from cotinus. With CoA of 99%. Well, this one IS the most bitter tasting thing I've ever tested on my tongue! It is quite stainy, and smells musty.

     

    But what puzzles me, is that Doctor's Best is not bitter at all.

     

    Do you have any experience/ideas of how to figure this out?

    Like
      • JGC
      • JGC
      • 2 wk ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Andrew Whitfield 

          The bitterness is suspicious.  To be really sure, you need to have a sample tested by a lab that does HPLC-mass-spectroscopy.  Fisetin has a molecular mass of 286.2363 g/mol, and the mass spectrum should show a big peak there and nowhere else.

      Like 1
    • JGC I agree it is the only viable way to check. On the other hand, I've found this description of it's properties. It is saying, that it is in fact bitter:

       

      https://foodb.ca/compounds/FDB000624

      So maybe if it is really 99%, it is a strong concentrate showing those properties?

       

      I will first try 400-500mg. A bit afraid to start with anything more. But the big advantage of Chinese suppliers is the price. It was around 25 dollars with shipping for 50 grams (52.7 with a plastic bag, I've checked it).

      Like
    • Andrew Whitfield Fisetin is NOT bitter. It is VERY similar yo taste and appearance to the more popular and more widely available Quercetin ( differing by only a single -OH group) - light yellow powder with very slight "powdery" taste. Bitterness may point to low purity and/or presence of solvents.

      Like
    • Andrew Whitfield If I have to guess, bitter yellow powder points to Berberine.

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    • aribadabar Why is it written then on a chemistry website that it is bitter?

      Like
    • aribadabar Well, in fact, if you google quercetin taste, it is stated everywhere it is bitter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercetin#:~:text=Quercetin%20has%20a%20bitter%20flavor,supplements%2C%20beverages%2C%20and%20foods.

       

      Although I did not ever try it

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    • Andrew Whitfield You have a known good sample from Doctor's Best which you stated yourself is not bitter at all. If you still have any doubts about my statements, I suggest you buy from another reputable source and compare....

      Like
    • aribadabar Can you suggest any good source for a bulk powder?

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    • Andrew Whitfield I have tried both Quercetin and Fisetin from 3 different sources - they ALL tasted very similarly and none were bitter at all. I also tried Berberine which was vile bitter yellow powder similar to the description you made above. Make what you will from this...

      Like
    • aribadabar Can you suggest any good source for bulk fisetin? I am not arguing with you, just exchanging info and opinions. While if you could advise a good source, it would be greatly appreciated

      Like
    • Andrew Whitfield I only used this bulk source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293083396786

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    • aribadabar I know it. But I am not from US, so not an option.. :( Will have to think about possible alternatives.

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    • Andrew Whitfield As to why it is written as bitter in a chemical datasheet, perhaps in chemistry speak bitter means anything "not sweet" ?

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    • aribadabar Maybe yes. By the way, I've did the simplest tests I've could at home. Checked the water solubility - it is very low, powder is just going to the bottom. So most likely not berberine, which is water soluble. Tried the UV - there is some glow (it was written somewhere it should glow), and compared the color visually to the ebay source which you provided. The color seems identical. Well, it would be so curious to put it under spectrography, but I suspect it would cost more than my whole package.

      Like
    • aribadabar The seller has replied me it could be a difference in the extraction process and bitter taste may not be removed with activated carbon. But it was a google translate from Chinese

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    • Andrew Whitfield So crappy extraction i.e. high level of residual solvents it is. Your call but I would not consume it as it markedly deviates from a known good sample.

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    • aribadabar Is there any simple way to purify? I am also cautious about it. Not willing to poison myself. Of course the seller claims it is safe and provides CoA from the Lab. But who knows. Anyway, thanks for a meaningful and knowleadgeable discussion. I've found a US-based source who ships 500mg pills to my country, will try them.

      Like
    • aribadabar To give you some context: with doctor's best, what I am generally unhappy about is consuming a huge amount of waste/fillers. That's why my quest for bulk has started..

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    • aribadabar That's interesting. Hmm. So, doctor's best vs this bulk. Visible vs UV.

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    • Andrew Whitfield Don't know which one is Doctor's Best but the upper, slightly lighter, non-glowing under UV one, seems like the Fisetin I have come across.

      The bottom one is too yellow and resembles Berberine more.

      Like
    • aribadabar Doctor's best is the dark one

      Like
    • Andrew Whitfield Fairly certain you have received Berberine then. Saturated yellow, VERY bitter powder - checks out.

      Like
    • aribadabar Maybe.. I am confused though, as some guy on fightaging website was claiming fisetin should glow yellow-greenish under a fluorescent light. And doctor's best is black. Maybe fillers also react to the light. Anyway, waiting for my 500mg pills from some other US supplier, let's hope this product won't be so questionable

      Like
    • Follow up: consumed 500mg with a buttermilk. No ill effects, all is fine and bitterness is bearable.

      At first got a bit of a psychosomatic stuff like cold hands, fearing to get poisoned :D But all went fine, so I will try gradual 1g and 1.5g. 

      aribadabar

      Like 1
    • aribadabar Noticed it also being quite stainy, like painting my cup yellow. I've had similar thing previously with other fisetin, so maybe it is still what it should be :) But maybe not perfectly clean extraction.

      Like
  • Hi, new here. I am 41 years old and have heard about fisetin senolytic therapy quite long time ago. Since then I've been taking 100 mg (doctor's best) fisetin on and off. Now it's maybe time to go one step further - I might want to take a higher dose. But is fisetin even effective at this age? I read elsewhere that one should be at least 50 years old. But I have arthritis and allergies and many different other ailments. So fisetin might help me. Or maybe instead of taking these high doses like 3 grams for 3 consecutive days every month I might want to take lower doses every day? I read that it also has some senolytic effect too. Sidenote: I am 41 but I look as if I was 30 years old or younger. I assume that this is due to taking a lot of supplements (flavonoids, curcumin, etc.) since I was 24. So these flavonoids work, I guess.

    PS. Are there any other anti-aging therapies within my reach ie. as simple as buying supplements. I'm not particularly thrilled at the prospect of buying Dasatinib (or doing similar things) and it may be too early for me to take it as well. I know, I know, there are forums to be browsed here but maybe someone could bring me up to speed.

    Like
    • Mick IsSick You are wasting your time and money doing 100mg/d of something as poorly bioavailable as fisetin IMHO. 3 days of 2-3g/d would yield a more meaningful result. If you don't want to do D+Q, the others are even weaker alternatives, especially at low doses. 40 is not young but it is not old either so a monthly or quarterly senolytic cycle would suffice to keep your senescent load in check.

      Like
    • aribadabar I disagree, Not everyone takes fisetin for senolytic purposes and fisetin at 100mg makes me feel noticeably different. Now, if you are trying to get a senolytic effect from fisetin 100mg then I would agree, I dont think that is going to do much of anything.

      Like
    • Fred Cloud You must be either extremely sensitive to it or weigh 150lb or less. Make a proper biodistribution calculation at fisetin's un-assisted bioavailability and see how unlikely it is to do anything for the typical male at 100mg/d.

      Like
    • aribadabar I don't know if I am extremely sensitive to fisetin but I know for a fact that I have a leaky gut. Maybe that's why fisetin absorbs better. So, what would be the maximal or effective doses that could be used on a daily basis (let's forget for a moment that I have a leaky gut). 200, 300 mg a day? Because as I read in the Amazon's review a 500 mg dose a day for five consecutive days is considered to have a senolytic effect and it was used in some kind of a protocol (don't remember the name). And then there is the other version of the protocol ie. 3 grams per day for 3 consecutive days... Of course it's all a matter of experimentation what is good for you and what works for you but I would like to know opinions of more experienced people here...

      Like
      • David C
      • David_C
      • 2 wk ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Mick IsSick To be honest I would do no less than 800 mg a day. I feel like 300mg is going to be metabolized too quickly. 3g for 3 days is what I stick to. I have done this for around 3 years now. I repeat every month to 3 weeks. 

      I had not seen my family in 5 years and they were in shock because they were expecting someone much older to come back home. I look younger than my younger brother now. I am not saying this is proof positive of anything.

      But I am 45 and people think I am in my twenties. It's gotten to the point I expect them to think I am much younger than I am. Again doesn't mean anything. But I suspect the only way to do this is CONSISTENCY. Regardless of immediate results. 

      Like 1
    • David C Thats impressive. So you started to look younger than you used to or your looks stopped aging? What else have you noticed long term doing this?

      Like
      • David C
      • David_C
      • 2 wk ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud Well I mean I am being told I look like late 20s to early 30s. Some of it could be genetic. I can tell you that I have noticed a younger face, no wrinkles, very little gray hair at all. I feel like I somewhat stopped a lot of the aging and reversed some aging...mostly in soft tissues. Like it's not going to reverse gray hairs or anything. Also my muscles are very pliant and firm and I don't really work out.

      My total regimen is: 

      Fisetin (monthly 3g x 3 days)

      C-AKG 1800 mg (daily)

      NMN (around 800 mg daily)

      Oxytocin 4 sprays (daily)

       

      I a feel very confident about Fisetin and C-AKG. NMN definitely helps with energy levels and brain activity, probably does a lot more synergistically with AKG. Oxytocin is good for muscle repair and I am giving it a go to see if when on it long enough (as we have this when we are very young) could it influence some cells to express a younger type. 

       

      I added all of this other stuff at the beginning of this year. If I drop anything it will be Oxytocin and then NMN. C-AKG is solid and so is Fisetin.  

      A final note on Fisetin. Some naysayers say its a senomorphic compound that it only mutes cykotine signals from senescent cells. And that it does not remove them. But the fact is I believe it's doing both. So when you take Fisetin you do get a very good feeling from it, like the body is relaxing and not going to war with itself. And this can fade after a week or two. But you never return to where you left off. And so it's also permanently removing some senescent cells.

       

      I noticed this when I first took Fisetin. The immediate effect was amazing, night and day. And then some of that wore off but I'd say a good 50% to 70& of it stayed with me permanently. I have in fact felt better since the first time I did it.

       

      So likely it is muting senescent cell signaling and killing some of them. When Fisetins activity wears off the ones it did not kill turn back on so to speak. But you can always repeat in 3 weeks or a month and try to get some more of them. 

      This is currently how I think it works with what I have been experiencing. But it's perfectly safe. I really feel great when I use it. But I want to make sure that cells don't adapt to it, as it needs to shock the system so to speak. Therefore I personally would avoid daily dosing. Better to do bigger portions monthly.   

      Like 1
    • David C Very interesting. I am very eager to hear any long term effects of these relatively new approaches like senolytics since we dont have many long term experiences. Have you considered doing a DNA age test to see what is happeing?

      Like
      • Chris
      • Chris.1
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      David C What are your thoughts on AAKG instead of C-AKG?  And what brand of Fistein are you using?

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      • David C
      • David_C
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Chris I imagine AAKG could be useful too. I just did C-AKG because of the mouse study. Generally speaking if I see very large results for mice and I think it's safe to try in humans then I might give it a go. 

      C-AKG definitely works. AAKG likely will too. I know the calcium salt was mainly for absorption. 

      Like
    • David C 

      Where do you buy your C-AKG ?

      There is one downside of A-AKG. In people like me where just about any supplement will cause side effects, A-AKG causes severe headaches. This is due to arginine being produced during A-AKG metabolism. I didn't even know that something like C-AKG is available... but now I will probably try it out.

       

      Speaking of side effects... many supplements will make me sleepy and NMN as well as niacin make me very sleepy. I know that it has something to do with GABA receptor in my brain being overactive / too abundant because, for example, taurine makes me sleepy too. It just knocks me down... I'm wondering if anyone has an idea how to counteract this sleepiness...

       

      And speaking of counteracting sleepiness... fisetin is very good at this... I'd say too good. Here is my experience that I gathered after a few days of experimentation.

      I took 500 mg on the first day, then 800 mg on the second day - felt like that was enough because I could barely sleep after taking 800 mg. So I decided to stop for a few days but this break lasted only 1 day because I read above that one should take fisetin with oil or dissolve it in oil. My go-to oil in such cases is MCT oil.

       

      Boy, it worked better than expected. After taking 100 mg dissolved in a table spoon of MCT oil the effects were greater than 800 mg before. Of course this still requires confirmation because I had to take a break from fisetin once again - after 100 mg and MCT oil I could barely sleep - I kind of slept but I could recall all of my dreams (I like that state of mind where you are able to recall dreams but to an extent and not for the whole night) and had to wake up every two hours.

       

      So, I guess now I need to try 50 mg dissolved in MCT oil and see how that goes.

       

      The problem is that I don't know if 100 mg dissolved in MCT oil is the high dose (used for senolytic clearing of your cells) or the small dose (let's call it a maintenance dose).

       

      Anyways, I am kind of thrilled to have found this new way that fisetin works for me though some adjustments have to be made - or maybe I will get used to the higher dose and that will be it.

       

      One thing that I also fing strange is that fisetin makes me agitated and I feel very well on it and people above wrote that it made them sleepy. I would expect fisetin to make me sleepy too but it worked in a completely different way.

      Like
  • Also even if Fisetin is muting signals a good deal it's still quite useful to give the body a non polluted environment to operate in so that it can restore tissue homeostasis. You turn off a large portion of senescent cell signaling for a week or even a few days then that gives the body some time to normalize and rejuvenate. Additionally like I said it must be taking some of the senescent cells out as well. I just don't see the downside to fisetin here. Other than cost.   

    Like 1
    • David C All things do point to it being a senomorph. But I agree I think it probably also has senolytic properties too, but who knows? It is a tricky, because what if it doesnt? What would happen if you just suppressed senescent cells for a long time, wouldnt more and more senescent cells keep building and not getting removed by the immune system and if you never remove them and just keep suppressing them it would be like not paying a bill and it just accrues interest. Have you considered doing occasional cycles of Dasatanib or fox04-dri which is definitely a senolytic just to make sure you are making progress and not kicking the can down the road?

      Like
      • David C
      • David_C
      • 10 days ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud I am not so sure that all thing point to it being a senomorph. Certainly no more than Dasatinib or others. All experiments have included Fisetin in much the same way as other senolytics. Why it is people single out Fisetin is quite amazing when they readily assume that Quercetin, which is chemical a flavanoid very similar to Fisetin, is just dandy paired with Dasatinib.

       

      In all honesty Fisetin has been shown to significantly reduce age related effects in mice and to extend their lifespan. The testing for these mice was done in much the same way as with FOX04 and Dasatinib. Why should we toss some results as faulty and others keep as legit when there is no difference on how they are measuring the effects?

       

      The same samples are taken, the same analysis is done.  

      Like 1
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 10 days ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      David C  I am not saying fisetin is bad or it doesnt have anti aging benefits. I am simply saying it is quieting the cells temporarily rather than killing them off.

      The reason why I say it points to being a senomorph are its effects are different than senolytics. I have read lots of reviews and feedback and they all point to fisetins effect being 3-4 weeks and then it reverts. Well senescent cells wouldnt just build back up in all people in such a consistent time frame. Most senolytic experts say it is only needed a few times a year bit if you are getting only a 3 week effect than that is something different. So when you have that action of suppressing sasp mode temporarily and consistently that points to it being a senomorph rather than killing it off like a senolytic.

      If it was truly killing off the cells the reversion would be longer and inconsistent and vary in time frame and also the reversion would be more subtle as the healthy cells would slowly and radomly geroconvert into senenescent cells so the reversion would be drawn out over time rather than a sharper reversion like fisetin happening pretty quickly between week 3 and 4. Also, the initial effect of doing a round of fisetin is pretty immediate and positive. People who take dasatanib report feeling down for a day or two while the body deals with dead cells. People arent reporting that with fisetin, they just get generally positive effects and not much downside.

      As far as quercetin, I agree. I am not even sure it does much of anything. Even Dr Green dropped it.

      Like 1
      • David C
      • David_C
      • 10 days ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud  It seems you are outright reject clinical data in favor of people "feeling" it does one thing or another. The thing is the data on Fistein is just as conclusive as other senolytics. FOX04-DRI also has hard to "feel" effects too. When you get into how people feel its very subjective. Data in the lab is less so. All data in the lab supports Fisetin being a senolytic as much as other compounds.

       

      And the results in mice were significant in terms of anti aging. 

      Like 1
      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 9 days ago
      • Reported - view

      David C Why do you think I am rejecting clinical data?

      The first thing I said was "I am not saying fisetin is bad or it doesn't have anti aging benefits."

      It seems like you think since I am saying fisetin has senomorph properties it is therefore totally useless and does nothing. Which I have said nothing of the sort.

      Like
  • 1g of "maybe"-99% fisetin in the evening, dissolved in a cup of buttermilk. Then cup's walls became colorated with yellow hue. The compound was bitterly disgusting, but I washed it with drinking a sip of water after 2-3 sips of a compound.

     

    After 30 minutes I felt very calm and warm, relaxed, but energetic. After about an hour a need emerged to take some deep breaths and an urge to yawn heavily. Like you want to yawn every minute, but could not finish it. Then several full successful yawns happened. I went to sleep.

     

    In the morning felt just perfect, fine tuned after a good night's rest. Perfect mood and a boost of energy. No ill effects after the disgusting bitter compound.

    Like
  • A clinical dose of 20mg/kilo of body weight for 2 days and give it a rest, not sure of the rest period, 4 months?

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