As a layperson, I find all of this frustrating and intimidating
Suppose anyone were to ask me how to go about benefitting from this website and/or this forum, I would not be able to tell them. And I am doing due diligence, or at least trying to. If we are serious, then lets discuss this.
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The first thing to do is just read everything here. None of it meets the "proven" status that conventional medicine claims they offer. If you want to see what happens with using conventional medicine, just look around you.
The people here have heard about more effective treatments and some are interested enough to even try them. Just because a mainstream doctor doesn't feel free to offer these treatments doesn't mean that all of us have to wait for whatever miracle would be required to bring these dinosaurs up to speed.
But if you can't trust established authority, what are you going to do? Well, watch us and make your own judgements about what is worth doing and what isn't ready for your personal involvement.
I like to say that I follow where research is pointing. The important part of science is the discoveries. Double blind etc is just the paperwork used to force the less informed to accept the claims. There's typically a 20 year gap between the two.
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RobH Proof exists only in logic, and only of validity which in merely internal self consistency within logical propositions. Truth, which is correspondence to reality, remains an Empirical question. And no amount of corroboration brings perfect certainty. Refutation may still arise at ant time. At best, experimental results may be deemed "conclusive." But it all depends upon where one sets the bar.
Indeed there has always been every reason for skepticism and outright mistrust of authority. But where does that leave us? We must embrace uncertainty, and never stop learning from mistakes, our own and of others, in order to become ever less wrong. In short, we must question. So, what are the questions?
One thing that for me raises concern, is any exhortation simply to try any anything for oneself. Anecdotal evidence is quite rightly the least valued in science. There needs to be a protocol of testing to evaluate results. And double blind testing, that you seemly dismiss as fraudulent, is crucial to laboratory conditions. If you are going to sound the alarm like that, do please share your evidence. If double blind is routinely compromised, then the entire practice of science is in crisis. And given the specialization and complexity of modern science, I do not see a return to amateurism as the solution.
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You miss my point entirely. Yes, anyone can be enriched by knowledge. But there is a greater intent of beneficial participation, or so I gather. And procedure is unclear. Nor do I see the strategic discussion required overall in any such ventures as at hand.
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Aaron Agassi Strategic discussion? This isn't a formal organization with a leader and staff to assign tasks. It's a community of volunteers sharing what they know/discover. It started around a small set of scientific observations that looked promising for improved aging. The lack of formal organization allows freedoms that just don't exist in formal environments. Academic researchers would be shut down short order if they shared offshore places to buy drugs at 90% off and without a prescription. But they can come here and share things that they couldn't share under their academic hat.
This is a place to share, not to demand.
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RobH If you think that strategic discussion requires formal leadership, then how can you believe in collaboration amongst equals that you seemingly espouse? The word 'strategic' only means as relating to the identification of long-term or overall aims and interests and the means of their achievement, indeed, of direct action and transparency whatsoever. Does that require formal leadership, much less academia? No. Not at all. Strategic discourse only requires discussion to an open agenda. I am making a call to agenda. Merely sharing will not rise to the ambitious responsibility of the objectives at hand. To reiterate, your sharing is not even intelligible or supportive for a layperson such as myself towards making whatever decisions and take whatever action for myself. I feel abandoned to my own devices and confusion, And yet, I make no demand, only an honest assessment. Criticism, after all, is inherently friendly.
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RobH Are you really saying that we mustn't strategize? Seriously?
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If you think that strategic discussion requires formal leadership, then how can you believe in collaboration amongst equals that you seemingly espouse? The word 'strategic' only means as relating to the identification of long-term or overall aims and interests and the means of their achievement, indeed, of direct action and transparency whatsoever. Does that require formal leadership, much less academia? No. Not at all. Strategic discourse only requires discussion to an open agenda. I am making a call to agenda. Merely sharing will not rise to the ambitious responsibility of the objectives at hand. To reiterate, your sharing is not even intelligible or supportive for a layperson such as myself towards making whatever decisions and take whatever action for myself. I feel abandoned to my own devices and confusion, And yet, I make no demand, only an honest assessment. Criticism, after all, is inherently friendly.
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Sorry: Above, redundant, can't erase, please disregard.
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Aaron Agassi I'm sorry if you feel abandoned, but the best advice I can give you is to warn you off doing any of this stuff. Dasatinib is serious medicine, and you need to understand what it can do, and more specifically, what it has done to other people at any dose you might consider.
Maybe after learning everything presented here you'll be ready to experiment yourself. But it will have to be on your judgement, not mine.
Since you are obviously interested in optimizing your health, perhaps diet is a better place to start rather than off label use of a chemo drug. Google Valtar Longo for what's available about his work on healthy aging. Eating his way will do far more for you than drug therapy.
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RobH First of all, I am skeptical about diet and exercise. Know more at: http://www.FoolQuest.com/kriosgrad.htm#metabolic
But indeed I have been slowly studying the Rescue Elder website, forum and links. And now this is what I would tell another lay person who wanted to know what purpose the Rescue Elder website, forum and links served for the layperson. Yes, it is an exchange. Yes, it promotes arduous self education. But all to what end for the lay person?
Extensive self education is indispensable to complicated decision is health, unsupported by our health institutions. But such arduous extensive self education is a formidable personal investment, and may risk playing into cult like recruitment. What is required is skeptical inquiry, challenging to the lay person.
To what end for the lay person? Answer: the Rescue Elder website, forum and links are for all intents and purposes a marketing site. And there is an appeal to exclusivity as might be expected considering the risk and the expense. But is it legit? Who can say? Even given all benefit of the doubt that its not just a scam outright, the hallmarks of legitimacy are candor, transparency, open criticism and call to agenda.
I worked as spec in language editing for Cryogen ICO, and was dropped for daring to question. I worry when I am commanded to shut up and not to worry!
Let's take a step back: Strategic discussion beyond the narrow definition of such exchange underway, as underway on Rescue Elders, might be in order. It is important.
For example, at https://forum.age-reversal.net/t/63d6tj/someone-please-explain Laci @loveyouall·attempts to raise what seems like crucial questions regarding fundraising. I tried to contribute, but still await response. And I am sure that this scarcely touches the surface of such challenging endeavor.
- Laci
- loveyouall
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Aaron, my wife and I went to a presentation last weekend and the presenter gave good info. He had volunteered for a trial using Dasatinib and quercetin in combination. The first doses were a week apart and then it's 2x year to get your body to detox from sensecent cells. Its one of many different techniques one can use. We bought copies of a booklet that explains it all and is one of the PDF files on this site. I suggest you browse thru it or print it out. He did recommend getting serious bloodwork done before trying any of these remedies to establish a baseline for comparison of your progress. But that bloodwork runs about $2000+ in most hospitals unless your healthplan will cover it.
The dasatinib costs about $2000 for 4 caps in the US. Sources from India will sell 60 caps for $272 which is much more affordable. Someone else posted that lab tests show the quality of the US drugs to be the same as those made in India so I plan on getting some of those, or thru a UK site that is said to be even cheaper.
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Peter5.0 Thanks for that concise and coherent titbit. Although, clearly, this barely scratches the surface of the entire disorganized body of information and individual decision that the lawperson is left to struggle with on Rescue Elders.
Moreover, glad as I am that you enjoyed that presentation and benefitted from it, returning to topic, I am concerned about the collective isolation. What is there here except sheer good faith to stave of the decline into the well known relative cult like sociological patterns? I would be better reassured to see, from the get go, a more Popperian faliblistic attitude.
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Aaron Agassi perhaps the best strategy is not to try and consume all the info at one time. I'm a layperson also and what I will give most value to are first hand accounts by people who have tried some of these methods. From some of your comments, it seems you approach this with lots of assumptions on how the discussion should go or what the requirements would be for you in order to be convinced. Instead of viewing this as some well documented field of study, consider yourself to be like the Wright Brothers on the cutting edge of a new technology. There won't be anyone there to tell you the best methodology to take. I see it as we are like the first ones to invent new flying machines with no blueprints or studies in aerodynamics to guide us. We are the pioneers who have the tools and are going to take the risks.
Or, you can sit back and let others experiment and wait until there is a large body of data and its much safer to try these new techniques and supplements. That could be 5-10 years away. Of course, there will be some setbacks and this is new ground. The Wright Brothers survived and I believe we can too. Personally, I don't need to know everything or have a solid guarantee of success before I self-experiment. What I do know is that once the govt really focuses their attention on this, many new rules and guidelines will follow that everyone will be required to follow. Right now, it's a clear field where we can do whatever we desire at whatever risk level one can tolerate. I'd much rather have this situation than the latter one I just described. I ordered from bonhoa today cuz it seems that even their prices are going up as demand goes up and I'd rather have it now, rather than later.
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Aaron Agassi I don't know if you consciously realize how many distorted conclusions you draw from other people's comments. At no point did I state "I don't care to know," but somehow, you have drawn that conclusion and ascribed that to me. I said "I don't need to know everything." You don't know anything of the preparation I plan to do, yet you have concluded that I am being cavalier about it. You assume that I am making little valid preparations. That is a baseless assumption and the 2nd instance of that with me. Do you realize you do that and then cause yourself a lot of anxiety over what you believe someone else has said? Try to only read explicitly what others have posted and don't add your own conclusions to what you believe they said.
I doubt any of us would know everything and if that is your requirement, then it may be a good 10 years before you are ready to try any of these processes.
I have healthy skepticism, but I'm not hear to dismantle everything others say and then critique their comments. I'm looking for first hand accounts of people who have experimented with some of these drugs and appreciate their sharing. No one is required to do that. I realize that each person will have a different reaction to them, but as long as no one ended up in the hospital, I feel assured that its worth the risk. I prob do have much higher risk tolerance than you and that's ok too. If you really are that skeptical, this may not be the process for you.
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Peter5.0 Indeed, literally, it is impossible to know everything, but one can never know too much. And what you are talking about is anecdotal evidence, the least valuable or reliable kind of evidence in science. And so, I wonder if you are skeptical enough. Science is predicated upon systematic doubt. And that is not merely a matter of individual personal preference. You speak of your own process, but nowhere have I found any documentation of any consistent and codified process. Do you really think that you are conducting science? As far as risk management, you also do not seem serious. I talked to a doctor become entrepreneur struggling to bring the experimental medicine Zinc alpha 2 Glycoprotein to the market, and as I recall, he remarked that the impact and side effects of new medications is not fully known until they have been on the market for seventy years or so. And on top of everything else, ZA2G is a breakthrough in medical safety, arguably safer than diet and exercise. Know more at: httrp://www.FoolQuest.com/kriosgrad.htm#metabolic
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Aaron Agassi I agree with Peter5.0 , in that you inappropriately alleged that Peter doesn't care to know whether his self-experimentation.
Peter, I agree with your earlier words, and think your comparison with the Wright brothers is appropriate. This is an early phase of experimental medical intervention, and therefore, we must currently work at trying things that are not sure to be optimal, as we discover what optimal is.
And Peter, I appreciate your (apparently) patiently pointing out below to Aaron how he misinterpreted your comments. Way to be civil!
But for Aaron, I might caution you to be more careful in interpreting others comments, as they might decide to ignore you in the future. -
Aaron Agassi you just did it AGAIN! You are totally clueless as to how you MAKE assumptions about other people and then hold them accountable.
You wrote, "You speak of your own process, but nowhere have I found any documentation of any consistent and codified process. Do you really think that you are conducting science?" EXCUSE ME, when did I commit to providing you with documentation? Never. When did I claim I was conducting science? Never. I don't have to provide you with ANYTHING, yet you sit there like a spoiled child demanding all sorts of proof from others. Or what? Will you ignore me then? Please do that now.
Most people are on this forum to learn more about reversing the aging process. Your actions show you are here mostly to stroke your ego, critique everyone else, demand explanations so you can feel superior? What incredible arrogance. The only positive thing to come out of this is that EVERYONE can see what kind of character you have and what your real goal is in this forum. So everyone else can see they have NO obligation to provide you with any explanation, documentation or proof of what they are doing. You have your head so far up you XXX you have no clue you are doing this. No wonder they fired you from your last job.
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Maximus thanks for you reply. But Aaron is so clueless, your words flew right over his head and he continues to do the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result. I think he needs a "timeout."
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Peter5.0 Am I repeating myself? I don't seem to be getting through.
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Beyond the sheer volume of the information, information to which I find my self ill equipped, I have to be concerned wit the one sidedness of presentation, which may fail to serve skeptical inquiry.
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Another paid troll on this forum.
Paid to post gibberish leading to cognitive dissonance.
Paid to waste time of those sincerely interested in the topics.
Paid to wreck havoc and create chaos within any thoughtful discussion.
If the moderator allows one troll, more will follow.
Paid by whom? I'll bet most people here don't need to ask.
I wish the forum software had an "ignore user" feature.
