Recent Plasma-Replacement Results
Two recent results have been published that are worth reporting here and are recommended for careful reading.
The first of these is a paper by Dr. Harold Katcher, Dr. Steve Horvath, and others reporting on a development originated by Nugenics Research of Mumbai, India. The work was done on by applying a component of young plasma (given the name Elixir) extracted from the blood of young rats. This Elixir was administered to aging rats, and measurements of the Horvarth methylation bio-age clock were done before and after the treatment. The before and after clocks indicated that in blood, heart, and liver tissues the bio-age was reduced by a factor of two. Less pronounced but significant clock-reduction was observed in the hypothalamus.
The second paper is the work of Prof. Irina Conboy's group at UC Berkeley. They examined the question of whether young-blood-produced tissue regeneration comes from the presence of beneficial components in the young blood or from the absence or dilution of harmful components in the old blood. To do this, they replaced the plasma in the blood of aging mice with saline solution containing 5% purified albumin. Unfortunately, they did not do bio-clock measurement on the results, but they noted beneficial effects to muscle, heart, and nerve tissues equal-to or exceeding those of young-old plasma exchange. The implication is that the benefits of young blood may lie in the dilution of harmful components present in old blood.
These are both preliminary studies using animal models, but their implications for us aging humans who could use some rejuvenation are very interesting. The Conboy results are particularly of interest because immediate application to humans would probably not encounter FDA roadblocks. (FDA Experts: please comment!)
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The closest you can replicate this now without a doc and machines would be to donate blood a couple of times a year and take gdf11 at home. The next level would be to get a doc with a plasmapheresis machine and have him replace some of your plasma and buy some plasma from the ambrosia company. Speaking of, I wonder if these plasma doctors like ambrosia will offer some sort of plasma exchange as an extra option.
Perhaps some docs will offer this as a standalone service much like the chelation docs back in the day would have rooms full of people in the IV room. The closest you can get to that now is In germany, they have lots of plasmapheresis treatment centers where they will filter your blood and should be able to replicate the conboy effect. Much like chelation requires frequent treatments to maintain, I wonder how often you would have to do dilute your plasma to maintain results?
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Fred Cloud Has anyone been to the Young Blood Institute? They offer Therapeutic Plasma Exchange.
Lots of great info on their site
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Fred Cloud
In the case of the Conboy treatment, I don't understand why you suggest that one might need to "buy some plasma from the ambrosia company". Googleing "plasmapharesis", I get this: "Plasmapheresis is a process in which the liquid part of the blood, or plasma, is separated from the blood cells. Typically, the plasma is replaced with another solution such as saline or albumin, or the plasma is treated and then returned to your body." That's precisely what the Conboy group is doing with rats, replacing old the plasma in their blood with saline plus 5% albumin.
My point is that there needs to be a trial in which this is done with old humans, with before-and-after Horvath methylation tests done to determine if there is any reduction in bio-age indicating rejuvenation. Of course at least one MD needs to be involved, but since only saline and albumin are used, there should be no FDA issues.
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Fred Cloud and JGC--got something going here. Thank you both very much!!!!
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JGC I suggested getting plasma from ambrosia to replicate both sides of parabiosis because they both have therapeutic effect, taking away the bad stuff (conboy) and adding young factors (Katcher, ambrosia, young plasma)
But you are correct if you just want to solely replicate the conboy approach of taking away or diluting bad stuff and you only wanted half the benefit of parabiosis then you would only need the plasmapheresis.
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Fred Cloud
I think Harold Katcher's Elixir is rather different from (and more effective than) what you would get from Ambrosia, but since the Elixir contents are proprietary, I don't really know.
You suggested that Conboy plasma dilution might have to be done repeatedly. However, if it really resets the Horvath clock to a younger age, that would be a permanent reset (since it's embedded in the epigenome) and would not require regular treatments (except to get later additional resets). That's why I think it's important to do the before-and-after Horvath methylation measurements.
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JGC I agree Elixir would be better, but it isnt available. I was strictly speaking of what was available right now to try to get this treatment or close to it.
I dont think the conboys are reversing horvath with their therapy, frankly because it cant, there is nothing in their therapy, they arent giving anything, so what would be rewinding the clock? So I don't think it is permanent just like infusing young plasma from ambrosia isnt permanent and has to be readministered. They are diluting signaling molecules in the blood that tell the body to act old which is mimicking a young person blood but since the cells are still old the old signaling molecules will build back up. I think only elixir is winding back the horvath clock and then telling the body to express the pattern of young blood which should make conboy therapy unnecessary but it would still be a good idea to dilute the plasma at the same time you take elixir because who knows how long they persist and could start to rapidly re-age the newly unaged rewound cells. Katcher mentioned this. -
Fred Cloud
Does Conboy plasma dilution reset the Horvath clock? That's an experimental question, and someone needs to do the experiment. I have asked Irina Conboy by email why they didn't do Horvath clock measurements on their rats, but no replies yet. If they have frozen blood samples left over from the experiment, they could still do those Horvath tests.
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JGC Yes, ultimately a test would answer the question whether it does or doesnt.
But what does it matter? it doesnt have to reset the clock to be therapeutic, right?
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Fred Cloud
In my opinion, it matters a lot. Most of the available anti-aging therapeutics (e.g., D+Q, Fisetin, NR, etc.) fix some problems but have no effect on the epigenetic clock. The only treatments of which I am aware that have some effect on the clock are: (1) The Yamanaka Factors (which lethally set the clock to zero), (2) The Turn Bio treatment (which won't be available for 5-10 years), (3) Steve Perry's GDF11 treatment (which he claims moves back the Horvath clock by a few years), and (4) Harold Katchner's Elixir (which has large Horvath-clock reset effects on mice and is "upstream" of GDF11).
In the long run, we a reliable way to first clear away the senescent cells (Oisin Bio) and then reset the Horvath epigenetic clocks of all the remaining cells of the body (preferably to an age of about 25 years.)
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JGC Sure, ideally you want to reset the horvath back to age 25, agreed. But are you saying you won't do the conboy therapy or any therapy unless it is proven to reverse the clock even though it has shown to be therapeutic and extends life?
Perhaps I am not following you and we are talking about two different things as you didnt say why it matters a lot?
I say in the meantime follow the research and use what we have access to right now until we have the holy grail.
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Fred Cloud
It matters a lot to know if the Conboy plasma-dilution treatment resets the epigenetic clock, because it would be the most readily-accessible technique that would do that.
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JGC Still not sure I am following you on this. Are you saying you it is a determining factor for you whether or not to do the therapy based on if it rewinds the clock or not rather than if it is therapeutic or not? plasma dilution is essentially available now and is shown to be therapeutic, thats good enough for me, if it resets the clock that is a bonus and is not a deal breaker if it doesnt. Are you saying it is a deal breaker for you if it doesnt?
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Fred Cloud
No, what I'm saying is that there is a definite possibility that the Conboy plasma dilution, like Katcher's Elixir, resets the Horvath clock. If it does, that's really important. If it doesn't, it is still an interesting treatment worth considering.
However, I'd like to have some reports of human results from using it before jumping in myself, since Conboy's work was done on rats. Also, although plasmapharesis is a standard and available treatment for immunological diseases like lupus, I'd like to know how much such a treatment costs and how hard it is to persuade an MD to sign you up for it as a treatment for aging.
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JGC I want more than anything that you and Staffan shave 20 years off your life because you guys deserve it for your participation, and because it'd be a confirmation that anti-aging is reality. Please keep at it.
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JGC and Staffan,
You guys please try bitter melon. Get fresh fruits from Asian store and juice them then leave in the fridge and drink a few sips after meal. I believe this will help you a lot. I believe that because I think disease fighting is a major contributor to aging. If you can boost your innate immunity with bitter melon, your adaptive immunity has a chance to recover and you'll be younger in the long run. I formed this opinion because I thought about rapamycin, how it suppresses innate immunity and allows the body to recover, becoming younger. Please watch the video.
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JGC The best approach to get it is to find a doctor that is doing it and offering therapeutic pheresis rather than trying to persuade an MD to prescribe it which will most likely be a lesson in futility. Dr Cook in the bay area is on the cutting edge and will accommodate and there are others you just have to seek them out.
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Chan Do you have science or studies or data or just beliefs?
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JGC Blood sugar spikes prevent phagocytosis (a component of innate immunity) and bitter melon suppresses sugar spikes. Preventing phagocytosis may trigger other infections and may trigger adaptive immunity (which involves manufacturing of sugar based antibodies). This activity requires stem cells/B-cells and is "energy" intensive.
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Fred Cloud what specific you have issue with so I can best answer you?
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Chan All studies showing antiaging effects of bitter melon
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Fred Cloud this is not a specific question so I don't feel like answering you. The logic is sugar causes activation of the immune system, which means the body is forced to fight defense/offense war against phathogens, leaving no or little energy to grow younger. I wouldn't doubt the potency of bitter melon to suppress sugar though. A high enough dose could cause permanent sleep, it's a very good sleeping pill because by suppressing blood sugar, the body discovers it has no energy and "shuts down" by going to sleep.
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Fred Cloud Do you have a link to get in touch with Dr. Cook? I would like to contact him.
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Dorian Gray https://www.bioresetmedical.com/dr-matthew-cook/
He did a podcast with Ben Greenfield and he talks about the "The Full Body Blood Change Reboot"
https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/lifestyle-podcasts/cbd-thc/
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JGC Companies will pay you for your plasma. For example, this one in San Diego will pay you: https://octapharmaplasma.com/donor/plasma-donation-faq
However, they may take the good stuff and put in the aging stuff back into your blood, which will increase your Horvath clock. Their FAQ says, "Plasma is the liquid part of your blood that carries red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets. It’s made mostly of water and proteins. Because it has so much protein in it, plasma is used to make life-saving medicines that treat patients who have experienced trauma, have bleeding disorders, have trouble fighting infections because of immune diseases, and more."
I am thinking it is not the protein, red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets that is slowing down the epigenetic clock. It has to be other factors in the blood, specifically signalling molecules that needs to be removed.
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Jim N
I would be surprised if anyone would pay me for my 85 year old blood plasma.
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JGC My understanding is the Conboy's don't think much of Horvath's clock but I've also heard that Horvath has agreed to test tissue samples from their experiment.
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JGC Sorry, 85 is too old. 🙂 "To donate plasma you need to be between 18 and 66 years old, weigh at least 110 pounds, and be in good health."
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Chan
I am happy that you appreciate the information that we share here on this forum. Parabiosis and its offspring - how to rejuvenate the human body by using blood factors is an exciting field.
The old hard way to reap some benefits from the blood and the effect our blood has on our bodies is is to do strength training sessions. When our muscles become more fit, they send out molecules to the blood and the resulting change in the composition of the blood can rejuvenate cells distant from the voluntary muscular skeletal system. Systemic signaling is the name the Conboys use for this way of influencing distant cells in the brain, heart, liver etc.
Exercise is good for us and this is just another way to appreciate how it influence our lives in a positive way. Diet and exercise is the foundation for good health.
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Larry
Yes, by email I had directly asked Irina Conboy why they hadn't measured before-and-after Horvath ages of their mice. Here's part of her reply: "A simple answer is that we have done something better: used our proteomics clock, which demonstrated youthful resetting (evolutionary conserved between mice and humans) in an array of 300-500 proteins." As I understand her argument, Horvath's DNA methylation measurements are indirect, because they tend to indicate the population of genes that are switched off. The proteomic protein assay shows the population of genes that are switched on and and are actively expressing proteins. Therefore proteomics provides a better indication of what's actually going on with the subject's epigenetic age.
That all may be so, but Horvath's clock is much better calibrated and allows for a direct comparison with other anti-aging work (like Harold Katcher's). She did say that her group was discussing a collaboration with Horvath. I hope that works out.
In any case, I think (but I'm not sure) that the methylation clock and the proteomics clock are measuring the same epigenetic state from different directions, and that if the proteomics clock is reset, then Horvath's methylation clock is probably reset as well. This would indicate that Conboy's plasma dilution produces a permanent (rather than a transitory) change in the epigenome in the direction of youth. That would be very good news, because of the simplicity of the Conboy procedure.
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Jim N They only pay approx $50 for your plasma?
Yet, ambrosia charges you $8,000!
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$8,000? I wonder how many 13-16 year olds would like to have a $3,000 cash contribution to their college fund. Just a wild black market imagination exercise.
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JGC Larry
The results from the conboy's group are fascinating.
https://www.aging-us.com/article/103418/text
And I found this comment on> https://www.instagram.com/p/CBV7_X2gq9d/
It is a very good and short summery of the results and easy to grasp so I post it here. Here it comes:
"Heterochronic blood sharing therapy' is the act of taking blood from young organisms and injecting it into the vascular circuit of old organisms. This act has been shown to rejuvenate the tissues and organs of the recipients, but interestingly, not brain functions of old mice, and inversely that young mice show rapid and significant decline in cognitive functions after receiving a single exchange with old blood.
Most of the studies on how this works focus on young plasma (and its components) as the donor liquid. However, it has not been proved that young blood is even necessary for the seen multi-tissue rejuvenation to occur.
In today's study, researchers show something unexpected. They replaced half of old mice's plasma with a solution consisting of salt-water and albumin (5%) while preserving blood cell levels (calling it a Neutral age Blood Exchange, NBE). The goal was to inject a solution that dilutes the plasma factors in the NBE recipient while preserving normal albumin and blood cell levels.
Young and old mice underwent a single NBE; and, as a control test, the team performed isochronic blood exchanges, meaning young-to-young and old-to-old echanges. Various tissue structures and functions where studied 6 days after the NBE.
In doing so they showed that a single NBE is enough to see the same rejuvenative effects as in young-to-old blood echanges: muscle repair was improved, fibrosis was attenuated, myogenic proliferation was enhanced; liver adiposity and fibrosis were reduced; and hippocampal neurogenesis was increased. Remarkeably, this rejuvenation is similar to (liver) or is stronger than (muscle and brain) that seen after young-to-old blood exchange.
This means that the positive changes seen in young-to-old blood echanges are not due to factors in the young mice's blood, but are mainly due to the action of diluting the blood of old mice. Therefore there must exist harmful factors in old blood that are responsible for some of the negative effects of aging." -
Dorian Gray When I was in high school, the Red Cross pulled in their mobile truck to get as many 18 year olds as they can, claiming they are helping saving lives. They did this for free.
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Jim N Very enlightening, Jim! I'm checking Autotrader ads for a suitable vehicle now.
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Dorian Gray Were you able to contact Dr Cook about plasmapheresis?
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Fred Cloud Not yet. I may wait until September to see how things unfold with virus.
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This may be a shot in the dark, but would systemic enzymes be capable of "cleaning the blood"?
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I wonder if providers will pop up and start offering plasma dilution therapy based on the results of this study? Anybody can replicate this study therapy and it doesn't involve giving anything controversial. Just a plasmapheresis machine. Which leads me to my next point. How will the FDA look at this if doctors started offering it? They came down on Ambrosia for selling young plasma, but this therapy doesn't actually use other peoples plasma that they could take issue with. I see this study as a breakthrough, not just therapeutically but from a regulatory hurdle breakthrough to offer this to the masses right now.
So will providers popup and will the fda shut them down?
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Fred Cloud
I think that replacing 50% of your plasma with saline + 5% albumin would certainly be controversial. Essentially all standard plasmapharesis involves much smaller dilution fractions, so human testing ramping up to the 50% dilution level is needed to assess side effects. But providers will undoubtedly show up, if only to do plasma dilutions with a smaller dilution fraction.
Incidentally, on the question of whether plasma dilution "permanently" affects the epigenome and will show up as a reduction in Horvath age, Irina Conboy recently answered my email question and said that they preferred protein testing and had used a protein-assay age clock. It indicated that their old mice did indeed have a younger epigenetic age. This implied that the Conboy technique does reprogram the epigenome to a younger profile. She also said that they were in negotiations with Steve Horvath to do methylation tests on their tissue samples.
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JGC Very interesting John. That would be shocking if true that it did reset the epigenome as I don't see any path to how that is physically possible. I don't know much about the protein testing and I do find it strange they would essentially go out of their way to avoid the more accepted and known horvath test and use a lesser known, obscure test. Sure, the conboys may feel that their protein testing is better than methylation but perhaps they are biased because their technique moves the needle more favorably on their protein test and not the methylation test. But I look forward to seeing an apples to apples comparison using horvath methylation.
By the way, have you had your horvath methylation measured yet?
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Fred Cloud
Yes, I have had my methylation age done, and it was a just a couple of years lower than my calendar age.
As I understand Irina C's argument, the protein assay measures which proteins are currently being expressed by genes that are switched on, while Horvath's methylation assay indicates which genes are currently being switched off or down-regulated by methylation. She argues that what is on is a better indication of the state of the epigenome than what is off. That may be so, but Horvath's clock apparently works and is much better calibrated than a protein assay.
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- if epigenetic clock reversal is proven in dilution experiment (seems probable if there is lasting effect to proteome) than there is another reason to believe in hyperfunction theory of aging
- hyperfunction theory is based on the assumption of post-reproductive detrimental developmental algorithms. If the epigenetic age may be shifted by means on of altered inter-cellular signalling we shall all consider that neither damage nor "loss of information" are suitable to describe the aging process.
- furthermore dilution of old blood shall show a positive effect even for normal plasma donation (without albumin compensation). Example of US regulation:Donor Weight>175lbs(80kg); max plasma collection volume=880ml; Max Plasma Loss/1 year = 83.2 Litres
- there are no elderly donors of plasma.. (due to regulation). That is probably one reason that there are no data to support the positive effects of old blood dilutions.
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stan stone plasma pheresis is big in germany, they have centers that have a bunch of machines, looks like a dialysis center. I wonder if they will be offering plasma dilution with a extra shot of young plasma and promote it as medical tourism for anti-aging.
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Fred Cloud
We need to see a bit more research. What can be done right away is the analysis of proteome and epigenetic clock of the senior frequent plasma donors (I learned in some countries the age limits are pretty high) .
That could be indicative of positive plasma dilution effects and bring the answer whether albumin neutral plasma dilution is important in the process.
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stan stone So the conboy study is not enough to convince you it has therapeutic benefits?
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Fred Cloud
I consider that to be groundbreaking study. And I believe in the following years there will be a broad spectrum of discoveries supporting hyperfunction theory.
In order to achieve therapeutic effects, some fine-tuning may be probably necessary. Brute force approach of "removing almost everything and compensating something" may be far from optimal for elderly human. The dietary and pharmacological interventions prior to diluting procedures followed/combined with MTOR suppression may be the way to go. It may turn out that although effective in few iterations the therapy may lead to exhaustion of stem cells.. who knows...
Good thing is that the effects are pronounced and the research can and will be replicated in multiple "flavours" in the following years.
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stan stone All good points. I guess you left me hanging when said "we need to see a bit more research...." Did you mean a bit more research before they would offer it as a service or before you would do the therapy and dilute your own plasma?
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Fred Cloud
...with "we" I refer to enthusiastic community of fellows like me and you.. :)
I'd consider frequent plasma donation after replication of the study and execution of new studies with altered parameters (e.g. volume of albumin compensation).
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stan stone Do you currently donate blood at all? That is proven to be therapeutic, heart attack risk is slashed way down and all cause mortality also cancer risk is reduced by 20%. Plus it is easier and less invasive than plasmapheresis machine. I keep my ferritin between 50-100
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Fred Cloud
No. I am considering plasma donation.
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Sign up for a study: http://youngbloodinstitute.org/our-program.html
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Larry They replace your plasma with young plasma which has to drive the price up quite a bit for this procedure. I wonder if they will offer the plasma dilution, it sure would be cheaper. It may not fit with their study interests though.
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Fred Cloud I heard it cost $50k which believe it or not is way less than a hospital would charge.
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Larry $50k !! I posted earlier about them paying plasma donors about $50
Thats quite a markup, what is that, 100,000% ROI?
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Fred Cloud That's cheap for Heterochronic Plasma Exchange. Here is a quote from a study: "Using the above data, the average short term cost for utilizing plasma exchange for MGC was $101,140 per patient compared to IVIG which accrued an average cost per patient of $78,814".
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Larry That must mean plasma is expensive to buy, maybe the plasma brokers are the ones making all the money. I know Ambrosia doctor quoted me $8,000 for a liter or two of plasma. But the game changer here is that you dont have to buy plasma you can just dilute it and get therapeutic benefits.
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On the recent Conboy study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7288913/pdf/aging-12-103418.pdf ) replacing 50% plasma with saline and albumin, the conclusion appears to be that old detrimental "factors" are being removed allowing for multi-tissue regeneration. I've estimated that it takes about 10 months (6 cycles) to off-load 50% of my blood volume by donations (8% of blood volume each donation plus bi-monthly blood work). I have low ferritin, and blood donation causes major drop in iron stores, so I'm supplementing Fe and doing CBC and CMP blood tests every two months just prior to donations. Ferritin test less frequently. Third donation in 2 weeks. At 66 yo it's worth the experiment and the cost is minimal.
In this 2019 talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2_H6d-6VU&t=364s
she states (at ~ 8 minutes) that it is not justified to interpret the parabiosis experiments as showing that there is some secret ingredient in young blood responsible for the positive effects. Plasma exchange (and parabiosis) appears to work for the older mice by resetting the interactions (signaling) between cells to younger levels.
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Hi Peter ,
Why are you donating blood and risking yourself by supplementing Fe? Why don't you donate 2-3 times plasma instead of 6 times blood?
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Levon
My ferritin levels tend to be low, < 30 ng/ml. Papers on phlebotomy show major reduction in irons stores with just one donation. Low ferritin can be associated with neurological issues in some people, as I learned a few years ago. My intension is to keep it low but not too low. My iron supplement is low dose. I'll be testing along the way. As for 6 times, I'm just shooting for 50% replacement to follow the Conboy study. This is a bit arbitrary and I could stop before then depending on what I see in blood work. That's why I do a CBC and CMP panels before every cycle. CMP monitors liver and kidney function. CBC gives data on immune cells. Not aware of any particular issues beyond iron for long term blood donations.
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Peter I gave a pint of blood and my ferritin levels went from 250 ng/mL to 53 ng/mL
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Peter You should keep a bottle of antibiotics on hand. Blood donations lower your natural killer cells to fight infections. Might be a good idea to get your flu shot and supplement with garlic since it has antiviral properties.
See article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8488538/
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Jim N Thanks for the heads up on this.
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Jim N That big drop is consistent with the literature. 53 ng/ml is a much better value that 250 ng/ml, much closer to optimum.
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Peter
So did you observe any benefit after 2 donations?
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Levon No. Nothing physical. But didn't expect that right away. Conboy mentions positive effects on liver, muscle, and hippocampal tissues. Her paper also shows a lot of proteomic changes, which I haven't sorted out yet. I emailed and asked about obvious external changes in test animals, but got no answer. I will be looking at a lot of blood markers closely though, especially towards the end of the process in about 6 months. Full hormone panels as well. I have all my hair (at 66 yo) but am very grey, so will be looking for changes in hair and skin. If I notice anything I'll post.
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Levon This is my own observation, buy my acne seemed to heal faster with 1 blood donation lower my irons levels from 250 ng/ml to 53 mg/ml. Dunno.
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Peter Is this plasmapheresis machine they are using on you use gravity or membrane?
There are two types of plasmapheresis – membrane and gravitational, membrane will not work, it removes the wrong particles, and among the particles it brings back are possible aging factors. The gravitational one removes the aging factors.
https://www.lifespan.io/news/biohackers-perform-first-plasma-dilution-experiment-on-humans/
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Fred Cloud Thanks for pointing this out. To date I've given whole blood, but have questions in to donation center about their platelet and plasma donation process. Will also try to sort out the details including the issue you bring up. I do not know, but have asked, what the donation volume is. At this point all I know is that their apheresis process is used for platelets or plasma, and that plasma can be donated every 4 weeks through the approx. 90 minute apheresis process. I am 66 with common A+ blood, so not sure if platelets or plasma from me is even desirable from their perspective. The medical community should probably wake up to the fact that donor age may be a critical factor for their patients. In any case, I consider the 50% volume mark somewhat arbitrary, but large enough that an effect should be seen - might compensate for smaller number of test animals. Big unknowns, to me, are how long any positive effect lasts, especially for smaller volume donations every 4 to 8 weeks. The "negative" factors probably grow back in at different rates, which would be good know as this would guide any ongoing protocol. The positive protein, Albumin, has a half life of about 3 weeks for example, so I'm not concerned about it dropping to low levels over time.
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Jim N Thanks for suggestion, but the relatively small volume of blood loss suggest NK cell number might go down by about 8% for a short period. These cells have a half-life of about 2 weeks so will bounce back quickly. I already eat a lot of garlic, and do a lot more for immune protection, including maintaining a health microbiome which is vital. The later is why I would only take antibiotics if there's a clear need.
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Levon Since my original post I've learned that my blood bank solicits plasma donations where they remove 600 to 800 mls of plasma and replace with saline. This can be done every month. Each donation removes about 20% of plasma. So 3 donations can be done over a 2 months span and will replace 50% of plasma. Plasma Of course much we don't know, like what the critical threshold is for one donation to have cascading benefits, how long the benefits last, etc.
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Peter You never answered the question. Is it gravity or membrane?
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Fred Cloud Fred Cloud Separation of components is done by sedimentation or centrifuge. No mention of membrane or any kind of filtration.
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Peter oh good. I would really hate to see you go through this and not get results. A guy in my GDF11 group did this last year. I should check back in with him to see if he got results.
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Are there any companies offering plasma exchange according to that protocol?
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Wonder if donating plasma would have similar effect
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Eurosymposium on Healthy Ageing - 1 October 2020
Irina talks about it from 31:35
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Российские биохакеры повторили эксперимент по разведению плазмы у человека https://rlegroup.net/2020/12/06/realnyj-biohaking-chast-pervaja-plazmaferez/
Translated table <min_opt, max_opt, before, after, delta> from the russian text.
After = 3 days after neutral plasma exchange.
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denis whats this crazy spam you are posting
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Фред Облако
why did you decide so? p.s. I translate via google translator. English is not my native
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denis It just didnt come through clearly.
Is one of these persons you that did this plasma dilution?
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Фред Облако
No, but I actively follow this topic and the article seemed interesting to share
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@staffan_olsson
The Conboys replaced old plasma with saline at 5% Albumin. They concluded that it was the removal of plasma that was responible for the effect. How do we know that it was not the 5% Albumin? Here is the reasoning:
a) Albumin of 5% is near optimum. It is very likely that the old mice had a level much lower than that!b) Several clocks (i.e. aging.ai), show that the level of Albumin is strongly inversele=y corelated with age.
So it would not be far fetched to assume that it was the 5% Albumin in saline that caused the improvements, by increasing the average content of albumin in the blood after treatment.
In my opinion, they should test for the albumin level before treatment, and inject saline with a content of albumin equal to the albumin level before treatment. Or, they could have some control old mice that they injected plain albumin, to make sure that it was not albumin that caused the effects.
On the other hand, Harold Katcher's experiment was robust, and the effects stunning. I can't wait to see how the elixir treatment translates to human beings. If it does even to some extent, I think we can forget about all other rejuvenation treatments . There will be no need for any of them for the next few decades.
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Zisos Katsiapis
In my opinion, the serious deficiency in the Conboys' plasma dilution work is that they didn't do Horvath methylation clock measurements on their mice before and after. Therefore, we don't know if the observed effect included epigenetic reprogramming or not. They did do a protein assay that provided some suggestion of epigenetic modification, but that doesn't allow any direct comparison. Harold Katcher's work, on the other hand, demonstrates dramatic epigenetic reprogramming of their rats.
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JGC
I agree with that. It was mentioned before, so I did not want to repeat. However, controlling for Albumin is also necessary, to insure that it is not Albumin that causes the "benefits". Assuming that the Conboys controlled for Albumin, and the Horvath methylation clock measurements showed some benefit, even small, it would be great news. Because it can be done today, without FDA approval. Of course, combination of the two (Conboys' and Katcher's) would probably be even better. But first, the Conboys must be more convincing.
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Plasma Donation Info
As noted in prior posts I've restarted blood donations every 2 months, and just gave my 5th donation. I also received feedback from the donor center about plasma donation as they are currently looking for donors. They use a centrifugal machine to separate blood cells and platelets and send those back. The volume removed depends on certain parameters like weight and BMI, but appears to average a bit over 600 mls, Plasma comprises about 55% of whole blood volume and is present at approx. 43 ml per Kg of body weight. For me that would be a plasma volume of about 3300 mls. So one donation would offload about 20% of plasma. Enough to make a difference in the signaling milieu? Don't know. In addition, plasma only donation can be a done every 4 weeks, so in 8 weeks 3 donations are possible. This would reach the 50% threshold which mimics the Conboy mouse study. It's a free process which provides a benefit to people in need, and may help remove, at least temporarily, a fraction of proteins which promote aging through their signaling (i.e dial down the negative signals a bit). Side effects are potentially worse than normal blood donation, so if you do this educate yourself.
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Peter I donate blood every 8 weeks. According to Conboy (private communication), this is at most 10% of their mice work signal. Hey, every little bit helps!
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MAC what is your ferritin level?
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Fluctuates, but these are the results over the last 18 months when I did test for it:
34, 20, 45, 15, 37, 23 My last transferrin was 21%. As I've posted I believe elsewhere, iron dumping is one aspect of my anti-aging protocol.
"Ferritin is not a good indicator of iron stores. Serum ferritin is a test that was formerly thought to be directly related to the amount of tissue ferritin, and thus, something that could be used to measure the amount of stored iron, which was believed to always be stored bound to ferritin. Today, modern research has shown that actually, serum ferritin levels are not related to tissue ferritin levels, and that iron is only stored bound to ferritin in tissues that produce ferritin, like the liver, and is stored in free molecule form in other tissues, like cardiac muscle, that do not produce ferritin. Transferrin saturation is the indicator of excess iron storage, and needs to be below 40% in everyone, more especially those individuals who have HH. Why? Simple. When transferrin saturation is over 40%, which indicates that iron storage sites around the body have reached their normal capacity, two things happen. One, is the liver releases the HFE protein (starting when %TS is over 20%), which is supposed to bind with receptors in other cells, stimulating the release of hepcidin, which in turn binds with receptors in intestinal cells, halting the absorption and release into the blood stream of iron molecules. The second one is the reason that 40% was chosen as the threshold - at 40%, there's not enough transferrin to bind with all of the iron being secreted to the bloodstream by the intestinal cells, causing free iron molecules to circulate in the bloodstream, getting deposited wherever they can, where they act as free radicals, causing damage."
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MAC that’s some pretty interesting research. I am in a heriditary hemochromatosis group and nobody knows anything about this. The universal advice all patients are given is for the doc to drain the patient below 50 ferritin and that’s it. They look at saturation but the docs don’t really know what to do with it. I manage my ferritin through blood purging by regularly. Generally I have found that I feel the best between 25-35 saturation, I feel worse any higher or lower. I also feel very tried under 35 ferritin or above 100. So I target it to how I feel. I emailed Dorian Gray a few years ago and he was very helpful and generous with his time and insight into managing ferritin and has a lot of experience with it. Maybe he can weigh in on this.
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Fred Cloud I am homozygous H63D, mild HH. Picked up some iron knowledge on an iron forum. I never paid attention to iron until I found out I was apoe 3/4, including my HH status, and thereafter went full on looking for all manner of anti-aging interventions. Stumbled upon iron dumping first, and the add on blood rejuvenation benefits recently. The max I can donate freely is every 8 weeks, and I have had no ill effects in terms of both how I feel or any biomarkers going wonky. They tell me 8 weeks is plenty sufficient time for males to replenish red blood cells. Of course they always do a finger prick test before releasing me to donate. They always tell me to not exert myself for 24 hours after donation, but I do my normal daily workout that same afternoon. Very few doctors, including hematologists, understand HH/ferritin/Saturation. Mind sharing your HH genotype and iron journey?
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Anti-aging testing conference - ILA-HEALES - 11 February 2021
You can watch the session of Irina Conboy, Vera Gorbunova, Harold Katcher and Hanadie Yousef from here which are about blood proteins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Ryx4dG-QU
Also, could you give some feedback please, did you observe any benefit after blood or plasma donations? I mean cholesterol, blood pressure, liver and so on...
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am 72 yo gave plasma 8 times in 23 days at biolife . can give up to 98 yo with Dr. approval. significant improvement in physical functions
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dale koester Thats great Dale.
Any changes you notice in how you feel or bloodwork?
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Fred Cloud seem to feel better. can run faster. lift more weight, things in general seem to be little better. Blood test was not much different. all good exceopt testosterone and estridial
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dale koester how did you get them to do donations 8 times in such short time?
Im suppriced your not tired after all that loss? -
dale koester Are you still doing plasma donations? Now that some time has passed have there been any noticeable changes? Or changes in blood work? I've done 800 mls donations a week apart and 500 ml before and after for well over 50% of plasma in 4 weeks. Haven't made the trip back to CSL Plasma yet, in part because there is a long line of younger people there for the money they get paid.
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Twice a week at Biolife, facilities all over US, maybe a little tired. Not bad
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Too bad this topic doesn’t get more attention.
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Hi guys, anyone here who did or is doing doctor Dobri Kiprov’s TPE ? Could you share the experiênce and results? Thanks
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Eduardo Paiva
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Eduardo Paiva I did six treatments with him and I can report excellent results with improvement in physical abilities, and mood.
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Thanks for you feed back.
Last year I did 3 treatments, but unfortunately the office in Florida have closed. California is too far for me for make it.
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Eduardo Paiva Which doctor or clinic in florida closed?
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Fred Cloud
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Eduardo Paiva ??
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Fred Cloud
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What results did you notice? Cost? Thanks
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No changes! Maybe 3 procedures be litte…
It cost 5k each.
Here you can follow dr. Kirov”s plasmapheresis clinical trial in progress: https://www.rapamycin.news/t/plasmapheresis-startup-looking-for-clinical-trial-participants-sf-bay-area/1916
