Fisetin experimentation one year (reposted as topic for info purposes)

Dean W. yes, the mind is very powerful. I discount all the anecdotes about feeling stronger, more alert, more energy as purely placebo. Give me several blood tests that show an improvement before I'll believe.

Paul Beauchemin Well once you feel it than you will believe it..You feel more alive...if it is a placebo then bring it on but i have never been able to get this by positive thinking. .. i think life style makes a difference as well... I do meditation which increases telomeres length appreciably also do organic green juice etc.... Pain in my prostate is reduced for sure.... not sure that can be placebo based. Also my yoga is better than ever and I have been doing it for 40 years.....I have never been able to stretch like this and I am not even straining.... if this is placebo then we should all be in this place

Dean W. Decades ago Richard Passwater wrote about biochemical individuality.  I just learned he died in April, at age 84.  I've also been a long-time advocate of placebo -- just an extension of positive thinking!  And virtually all "healthy" blood ranges, & other standards, are simply averages of an unhealthy population -- not at all related to optimal health, nor anti--aging

Dean W. All this fuss over fisetin availability doesnt seem justified. People are taking it as a senolytic and getting results, so there doesnt seem to be a need for fixing a problem that doesnt exist. Now if people werent getting results, fine, but that isnt the case.

Fred Cloud And all. Agree with you Fred. In my case Swanson's fisetin following  Mayo protocol works. It was not placebo as my chin ups increased immediately from 20 to 26. Pull ups went from 22 to 28. This was not "feeling good" effect and is as much as a biomarker as any blood test. The increase was immediate following the first two day   There was no improvement in my Levin Pheno or DNA m from blood test before and after.  I cannot quantify improvement in vision color improvement but it happened.

Dean W. Can anyone say rapamycin cream?     LOL     If ever a larger con game existed, perpetuated by otherwise "credentialed physicians" on this board, I have yet to see it: precisely, before and after examples.

Fred Cloud  Fred, I have read many more comments that people had no noticeable changes, including me. The reasons for that are not known but chemistry shows the solubility in water is only 0.151 mg per ml. Not much. It is better in alcohol but not so good that you would not get totally drunk trying to dissolve a gram of it. I can't argue with chemistry. Senolytic effects would not happen overnight but would take weeks to months.

Dean W. taking weeks to months to show? I dont think so. Why do you say that?

Michael I'm trying it. I've used it for about 3 weeks on the back of one hand. No difference so far but I imagine if it works it will take months. Unfortunately, my hands are not very aged so it will be subtle. I'll send a pic out in the future and let others decide if they can see a difference. 60 male. 

Larry Thank you!

Larry  Since your hands are not very aged you may not notice it...it takes a long time to get results...

Michael What are you talking about con job? I sent you to all my posts with Dr mark who graciously is sharing with us his experiences with his patients and on himself and his family on the Topical Rapamycin cream. In the series of posts he talked about a published study on this topical cream which was rather remarkable in that not only were wrinkles visually reduced markedly but also the senolytic cells were almost all removed from the skin. Granted it took 8 months to complete.  Pretty amazing study as they also had photos. So when you talk about con jobs a published study is far from a con job. Dr Mark is very busy and gets nothing from posting and so your judgements do him a great disservice. Personally he has been a great help to me and I have been able to help others from what I learned. We are not on here to send you photos.... nor to convince to try anything. But simply to share what we experience and hopefully help others in their journey. 

garland You're right. I should have not chosen that phrase. I appreciate all the information you've passed on as well. 

garland HOWEVER. I do believe if people on this forum are going to make claims about successes they ABSOLUTELY need to provide evidence, especially a licensed MD. And, I can guarantee you I'm busier than anyone on this forum but would still take the time to provide evidence along with claims of success. I believe I posted blood work from several months ago openly asking for feedback. That's what the spirit of the community should be; TOTAL transparency - Not selective bs.

Michael A licensed MD? Greatest danger to ones health in many cases is a licensed MD. A Harvard study several years ago concluded that the greatest contribution to premature death is our medical community - Drs., hospitals, and pharmaceuticals.

Peter H. Howe Couldn't agree more. That these sheep bow to them is nauseating.

Larry  How did you get your "hands" on the Rapamycin cream?

ripeideas 

Dean W. Studies are always suspect, IMO.  Some for obvious deception, but most due to omissions.  How many studies were done, to get the one with results worth publishing?  And in pharm industry, the contents of placebo are never revealed, but mostly created to simulate the side effects of tested product.

Paul Beauchemin Take a look at the original post at the top of the page from David. He talked at length about the strength gains he got from senolytics and theorized that it boosts testosterone. I did some research and confirmed that they have found andropause or age related test decline to senescent cells and posted the study.

study showing senolytic treatment reverses age related testosterone decline by killing off sensecent cells in the teste leydig cells.

FOXO4-DRI(senolytics) alleviates age-related testosterone secretion insufficiency by targeting senescent Leydig cells in aged mice.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7053614/

Fred Cloud https://researchpeptides.net/product/peptides/foxo4-dri-10mg/       "*Includes one 30mL Bacteriostatic Water with orders over $300.00"  LOL

Michael yeah, I know, expensive. I think if fisetin is boosting testosterone then you can substitute it instead. Much, much cheaper and safer. I am tempted to try it just to see what happens though.

Fred Cloud I think I might buy it as a Christmas present to myself.  But I'll make sure to post before and after, "'Scanners' head exploding" photos for the group. That's the stuff referenced in the article though, correct?

Michael yes, thats the stuff. Just a thought but if you are going to buy it why not wait until you have experience with lots of rounds of other senolytics like fisetin and then you would have more experience to compare and assess if it is any better or more effective and therefore worth it. Also, with other rounds of senolytics before you might be able to clear away the low hanging fruit senescent cells with cheaper senolytics first and then bring out the more exotic guns later.

Fred Cloud Good thoughts. BOY there's a ton of potentially good things on that site. The Cosmetic Peptides section in particular.

Michael yeah, I have bought lots of stuff from them over the years. Mainly cjc-1295 combos and bpc-157 thymosin alpha 1 etc, but actually none of the cosmetic peptides though. This is the main site you actually buy from though https://www.peptidesciences.com/

Fred Cloud yes I have received similar results as David but I do notice that it takes a few days for me to get that burst of energy. In fact I notice some tightness' in my chest while I am doing the senolytics ....so I always go more modertly  when i walk while doing the senolytics . When I do senolytics  I never strain on any excersize.  I took it a few days ago and yesterday I had a burst of walking that reminded me of my walking 20 years ago. I could feel immense power. But the real changes that astound me is that my body has become incredibly limber. I am getting into yoga posses that I have never been able to do and I have done yoga for over 40 years. My limber body is itself a miracle and not one that I expected. I do not think that is due to placebo... I started noticing this about 6 months ago. I have done Fisetin and Quercetin over 15 to 20 times.... and Dasatinib maybe 8 times plus or minus. But I live a healthy life style as well. My prostate always bothers me less after doing senolytics  which is a God send. 

garland wow, thats an impressive amount of senolytic rounds. How long have you been doing these, do you do it once a month? I have found myself feeling more limber after taking rapamycin.

Fred Cloud this paper doesn't claim that taking a senolytic raises testosterone

Fred Cloud Peptides seem like a very interesting area to explore. I don't know how to create a whole new category on the home page, but I hope a moderator can do it so a discussion can develop. For example, thymosin alpha-1 may help regenerate the some immunity

Paul Beauchemin Huh? Yes, the study does say that senolytics increase testosterone

Fred Cloud Yes I try to take it every 3 or 4 weeks..... I like the feeling that I get with it. Makes me feel younger. Is it a placebo... maybe but the power of the placebo is huge why not harness it with positive affirmations and like life more fully that way. however I have taken many such nutrients with amazing claims and this is one of the very very few that actually delivered something to me that i can feel strong results from. And the less pain in my prostate is huge as well. I can not tell you how many things I have tried to help my prostate but not much worked at all. So why does fisetin etc work so well as a placebo? LOL... maybe because it is not a placebo. Also I had no idea that it would help my prostate nor did I have any idea that it would help me do better in Yoga poses. So hard to assign placebo to unknown results.... 

Paul Beauchemin Paul, have blood test before and after starting fisetin. Blood test on May 13 and Nov 5. Started Mayo protocol  on June 8  (1.5 gm, 2 consecutive days), and repeated 6 times before Nov test. Total T on May 13 was 197  (Free T was 11.1) and it was 199 ( Free T was 13.0)  on Nov 5. I am  hypogonadal and use 4 mg Androderm patches daily.  My free T is in normal range due to use of DHEA and high dose fish oil. 

There was also no differences in Levin age markers on the two test dates except that I was a year older on input.

As I said  before in previous post, there was a significant impact on color vision and marked increase in chinups and pullups. This was immediate and not a placebo effect. The increase in pullups and chinups did not increase after first increase but remained at the same increased level.  My opinion is that there may be an effect on mitochondria but I don't know. Did find papers on improved vision attributed to fisetin but explanation and biochemistry was above my paygrade.  

Mayo is doing 3, phase 2 trial on seniors. Must be a reason.  

e

Peter H. Howe so no effect on T nor age markers.

The mind is quite powerful. I can use hypnosis to get you to double your chin ups!

still skeptical about senolytics since no real life extension benefit has been demonstrated. Maybe they'll pan out.

Everyone is entitled to spend their money where they want of course.

Paul Beauchemin You are stretching credibility. If your comment on the power of hypnosis was correct ( and it is not) , everyone could run a 4 minute mile. To cure any disease, all one would have to do is visit a psychotherapist. There are placebo effects, but these are limited. 

Note, I did not attribute my personal experience with fisetin to its senescent cell removal which is well documented.  The effects were immediate and it is "unlikely" that the increase in strength, endurance and improvements in color vision could be attributed that quickly to senescent cell removal.

Mayo Clinic studies are based on placebo effects? Doubt it. 

Peter H. Howe Q.E.D.  No evidence to support any of the claims is substantiated.

My point has never been about whether or not fisetin will or won't be an effective anti-aging supplement. It has been to counter the wild claims being made in this thread about supposed benefits. These claims are terribly irresponsible to people researching anti-aging.

Claims that fisetin improves testosterone, increases pull ups or better color are junk science.

Paul Beauchemin I am not sure that self reports are considered pure research per se. However many look at self reports as valid ways of discovering avenues to do productive research. For sure in human studies self reports are considered as valuable ways to discover information. It is a great start.. but these forums are interesting and help us understand what maybe happening within the parameters of self reported effects of Senolytics.  It is not junk science because no one is saying that this is a regular study with adequate controls etc. To be quite candid with you there is not any real science that can be done on human beings in real life situations. We do correlation research then compare to animal models . This model is the way the research was done on cigarette smoking to prove causality etc.  Without the animal research it would have been difficult to assign causality.  So human research for the most part is done with correlational type research which is difficult to find causation. Too many factors influence blood test results to really give us much information. However with large sample sizes this tends to give us patterns that can be very helpful to assigning possible causality. So animal models are very helpful here in assigning some credibility to the correlation research done on humans. So I would say that this forum can provide us with some meaningful information but not true scientific research results. 

Paul Beauchemin   Thanks for the comment. I will keep it in mind when I submit my fisetin order to Swanson. I waste a lot of money as it costs me ~ $12 /month. Must drive the pharmaceutical people nuts.  

 I enjoy doing my 26 chinups and improved color vision.

 In terms of Q.E.D. You might want to review some of Fred's references and those in the  Forever Healthy Risk assessment. Throw in the Mayo studies. 

I seem to recall that you expressed similar comments about statins. I attribute my 27 years of healthy survival after an emergency bypass to a statin ( and fish oil.).The probability of surviving this long after a bypass without another intervention is is less than 5%. Guess my N=1 doesn't count on this issue either. 

Peter H. Howe As usual, the truth is somewhere in between. Fisetin apparently does NOT boost T but improves exercise performance - most likely, due to improved mitochondrial health, removing dysfunctional senescent cells and thus creating a healthier and more youthful cellular milieu. That is  to say, it works but often not the way we think it does. Another point is the existing cellular burden -  someone in their 40s with barely any would not notice huge improvements while someone 60+ most likely will. So there are a lot variables to account for the different user experiences.

aribadabar Truth is truth-- it does not change. The problem is that biology has a very wide 95 % confidence level. What can save me can kill you. Statins are an example. 

Your point on age as a major issue in that some experience enhancement in some physical functions and not others do not may be why I experienced what I experienced with fisetin. Thanks for pointing it out. I am 80 yo.

I am somewhat confused by your testosterone comment. I specifically documented to Paul B. that my testosterone level was not affected based on blood work after 6 months of fisetin usage. . The same was true for Levine phenotype and DNAm age biological estimates.

 I am not sure, with long term use of fisetin, that testosterone level will not be increased if senescent Leydig cells are removed in the testes. I don't know and others have speculated that this may occur. 

I indicated to Paul B. that it was my opinion that my almost instantaneous increase in strength, endurance and improved color vision was "probably" due to mitochondrial enhancement as you suggested.  I do not know for sure what factors were involved in the improvements but something happened. In my opinion it was unlikely due to senescent cell removal. This process will ultimately take place based on the literature, but as of yet I do not have any method to document this on a personnel basis. 

aribadabar You are saying someone in their 40's would barely notice improvement, but the topic starter david c is 43 years old and is describing in detail that he has a huge improvement along with other people that have posted that they have noticeable effects in their 40's from senolytics. So your theory doesnt seem to be the case.

Fred Cloud I would like to see his entire regimen before reaching any conclusions. All the improvements mentioned are impossible by fisetin alone. So yeah, I don't buy his version of events.

aribadabar Like I said, he isnt the only one saying they are getting improvements on senolytics in their 40's. Are you going to reject all the others too?

Fred Cloud If they ALSO do TRT, HGH and all other exotic interventions that they fail to mention, yeah, I will reject that fisetin is responsible for these improvements. It is good but not THAT good.

aribadabar Aribadabar, I have been doing HRT ( Testosterone) DHEA-S, pregnenolone for the past 20+ years. Do not do HGH as my IGF-1 is marginally OK.

The use of these steroids are not responsible for the almost instantaneous increase in the benefits I realized in June, 2020 after my first use of fisetin following the Mayo protocol.  I think your initial consideration that the benefits were due to some kind of mitochondria enhancement is the best "guess". I also think it was unlikely the initial benefits were due to elimination of senescent cells as these benefits occurred within a day after completing my first dose (comment for Fred). This is not to say that fisetin does not remove senescent cells. It certainly does based on the literature which indicates that it can remove 4 of the 6 main types of senescent cells. 

It is also a mTOR1 inhibitor which causes me some concern at my age. If I remove a large number of senescent cells in the interest of alleviating senior frailty, there is limited data to suggest that this may not be advisable in that I may need mTOR1. There is beginning to be a  limited number of publications which suggest this may be the case and I may need mTOR.  

As a great mind once said: everything changes and nothing changes.

Have a nice holiday.

Peter H. Howe Hey Peter, the opposite is true about the mTOR signal - it increases with age and thus needs to be suppressed more which is why senior people have been taking higher Rapamycin doses than the younger ones. You do need SOME mTOR but without inhibition is much more than you really need for healthy aging and you definitely don't need an mTOR boost.

@aribadabaYour post is accurate up to a point.

There is literature to suggest that inhibition is not good in old age.   See attached. Note authors recommend stimulating mTOR, in part with omega 3 fatty acid to correct sarcopenia. There are more examples if you search.

@https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40520-019-01146-1r 

Peter H. Howe They hypothesize that Omega-e FFAs increase mTOR and that's how they try to explain the anabolic effect. Looking at the papers they base that HYPOTHESIS on, none of them cite mTOR as the reason. I.e. it's a guess, not a scientific fact. You do need some mTOR for muscle building/maintenance and to avoid sarcopenia no doubt but saying that it is done via mTOR activation due to Omega-3 supplementation is a stretch at this point. Protein consumption does boost mTOR, O3 one - not really.

Peter H. Howe For overall health , it is best to have short mTOR bursts during muscle building exercises as opposed to constant strong mTOR signalling which is unquestionably deleterious.

aribadabar It is a point and it is really.. As I said, there are multiple  papers on this issue. Attached is another one dealing with exercise, stimulation of mTOR and eliminating frailty. It has multiple references on this topic. There are many more, some of which deal with protein as indicated in the first paper along with O3.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.01266.2009.

Point is stimulation of mTOR for treatment of frailty in seniors is beneficial.

Peter H. Howe And I don't reject that point, I just go further into its nuanced understanding i.e. the mTOR activation needs to be pulsatile, not continuous, to get the benefit without the detriment.

aribadabar Now we are going to discuss strong vs weak? What about protein in seniors. Again increase consumption from ~.5 gm in middle age  to 1-2gm/kg to stimulate mTOR and muscle growth. Give you some papers on this also. 

Peter H. Howe It's a tradeoff. Frailty vs. inflammation/oncogenesis/oncoproliferation. One has to decide what's more important for them. For myself, frailty is of lower priority to the other issues.

Fred Cloud Wow amazing stuff... might explain my placebo results.... LOL

Andrew Whitfield Did I

JGC 

Andrew Whitfield 

I am doubtful if the Fisetin powder actually dissolved in buttermilk, as opposed to going into suspension.  The distinction makes a big difference in whether it was present in good concentration later in your bloodstream.

JGC 

Well, maybe the suspension case. I am no expert. What I was able to observe is that no powder or chunks remained in my cup and buttermilk became yellowish.

About the bloodstream concentrations - can you be more specific, like what is what in each case, and suggest your own alternative or better approach, if any?

JGC 

If you have any good advice and relevant experience to share, it is appreciated

Andrew Whitfield 

    The problem is that flavenoids like Fisetin, Quercetin, and Curcumin are fairly insoluble in water, and only slightly more soluble in oils.  (They are more soluble in ethyl alcohol, but you would have to imbibe a dangerously large amount of alcohol to get a suitably high level dose of the flavenoid.)  There are some work-arounds for this problem, but none are easily achieved.  I tried taking 10 caps of LifeExtension's Bio-Fisetin (which is supposed to be 25 times more bioavailable).  However, based on my body's lack of response, I am not convinced that it delivered the dose level needed to clear senescent cells.

    The alternative is to just take a big enough dose of Fisetin to get a senolytic-level concentration in the blood stream.  My wife and I have done that several times by stirring 2 grams of Fisetin powder into a jigger glass of olive oil which has previously been warmed by 1 minute in the microwave.  This produces a mustard-colored suspension.  We drink it and scoop the residue out of the glass with bread fragments.  I guess there are some oils in buttermilk, but the main liquid is water and I would not expect it to dissolve as large a fraction of the Fisetin as warm olive oil would.

JGC Thanks for the tip! I will try your approach with oil on my next round, after a month.

For now, I've completed 4 days of 1.5g. On the last one I've tried putting it into 35% dairy cream. Visually it dissolved pretty well.

Not much effects to report this time.

Ordered some more 99% from AliExpress. Risking a bit regarding the quality, but 50g is just 22 dollars. And they put screens of CoA there, kind of.

Andrew Whitfield 

    The bitterness is suspicious.  To be really sure, you need to have a sample tested by a lab that does HPLC-mass-spectroscopy.  Fisetin has a molecular mass of 286.2363 g/mol, and the mass spectrum should show a big peak there and nowhere else.

JGC I agree it is the only viable way to check. On the other hand, I've found this description of it's properties. It is saying, that it is in fact bitter:

https://foodb.ca/compounds/FDB000624

So maybe if it is really 99%, it is a strong concentrate showing those properties?

I will first try 400-500mg. A bit afraid to start with anything more. But the big advantage of Chinese suppliers is the price. It was around 25 dollars with shipping for 50 grams (52.7 with a plastic bag, I've checked it).

Andrew Whitfield Fisetin is NOT bitter. It is VERY similar yo taste and appearance to the more popular and more widely available Quercetin ( differing by only a single -OH group) - light yellow powder with very slight "powdery" taste. Bitterness may point to low purity and/or presence of solvents.

Andrew Whitfield If I have to guess, bitter yellow powder points to Berberine.

aribadabar Why is it written then on a chemistry website that it is bitter?

aribadabar Well, in fact, if you google quercetin taste, it is stated everywhere it is bitter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercetin#:~:text=Quercetin%20has%20a%20bitter%20flavor,supplements%2C%20beverages%2C%20and%20foods.

Although I did not ever try it

aribadabar https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-08-masking-bitter-antioxidant-quercetin-enable.html

Andrew Whitfield You have a known good sample from Doctor's Best which you stated yourself is not bitter at all. If you still have any doubts about my statements, I suggest you buy from another reputable source and compare....

aribadabar Can you suggest any good source for a bulk powder?

Andrew Whitfield I have tried both Quercetin and Fisetin from 3 different sources - they ALL tasted very similarly and none were bitter at all. I also tried Berberine which was vile bitter yellow powder similar to the description you made above. Make what you will from this...

aribadabar Can you suggest any good source for bulk fisetin? I am not arguing with you, just exchanging info and opinions. While if you could advise a good source, it would be greatly appreciated

Andrew Whitfield I only used this bulk source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293083396786

aribadabar I know it. But I am not from US, so not an option.. :( Will have to think about possible alternatives.

Andrew Whitfield As to why it is written as bitter in a chemical datasheet, perhaps in chemistry speak bitter means anything "not sweet" ?

aribadabar Maybe yes. By the way, I've did the simplest tests I've could at home. Checked the water solubility - it is very low, powder is just going to the bottom. So most likely not berberine, which is water soluble. Tried the UV - there is some glow (it was written somewhere it should glow), and compared the color visually to the ebay source which you provided. The color seems identical. Well, it would be so curious to put it under spectrography, but I suspect it would cost more than my whole package.

aribadabar The seller has replied me it could be a difference in the extraction process and bitter taste may not be removed with activated carbon. But it was a google translate from Chinese

Andrew Whitfield So crappy extraction i.e. high level of residual solvents it is. Your call but I would not consume it as it markedly deviates from a known good sample.

aribadabar Is there any simple way to purify? I am also cautious about it. Not willing to poison myself. Of course the seller claims it is safe and provides CoA from the Lab. But who knows. Anyway, thanks for a meaningful and knowleadgeable discussion. I've found a US-based source who ships 500mg pills to my country, will try them.

aribadabar To give you some context: with doctor's best, what I am generally unhappy about is consuming a huge amount of waste/fillers. That's why my quest for bulk has started..

aribadabar That's interesting. Hmm. So, doctor's best vs this bulk. Visible vs UV.

Andrew Whitfield Don't know which one is Doctor's Best but the upper, slightly lighter, non-glowing under UV one, seems like the Fisetin I have come across.

The bottom one is too yellow and resembles Berberine more.

aribadabar Doctor's best is the dark one

Andrew Whitfield Fairly certain you have received Berberine then. Saturated yellow, VERY bitter powder - checks out.

aribadabar Maybe.. I am confused though, as some guy on fightaging website was claiming fisetin should glow yellow-greenish under a fluorescent light. And doctor's best is black. Maybe fillers also react to the light. Anyway, waiting for my 500mg pills from some other US supplier, let's hope this product won't be so questionable

Follow up: consumed 500mg with a buttermilk. No ill effects, all is fine and bitterness is bearable.

At first got a bit of a psychosomatic stuff like cold hands, fearing to get poisoned :D But all went fine, so I will try gradual 1g and 1.5g. 

aribadabar

aribadabar Noticed it also being quite stainy, like painting my cup yellow. I've had similar thing previously with other fisetin, so maybe it is still what it should be :) But maybe not perfectly clean extraction.

Andrew Whitfield So, which one are you saying is right?

John Ramos I don't know, to be honest. I was able to buy some with other, non-Chinese supplier and used it as well.

Andrew Whitfield Did you notice any difference taking the various brands?

Mick IsSick You are wasting your time and money doing 100mg/d of something as poorly bioavailable as fisetin IMHO. 3 days of 2-3g/d would yield a more meaningful result. If you don't want to do D+Q, the others are even weaker alternatives, especially at low doses. 40 is not young but it is not old either so a monthly or quarterly senolytic cycle would suffice to keep your senescent load in check.

aribadabar I disagree, Not everyone takes fisetin for senolytic purposes and fisetin at 100mg makes me feel noticeably different. Now, if you are trying to get a senolytic effect from fisetin 100mg then I would agree, I dont think that is going to do much of anything.

Fred Cloud You must be either extremely sensitive to it or weigh 150lb or less. Make a proper biodistribution calculation at fisetin's un-assisted bioavailability and see how unlikely it is to do anything for the typical male at 100mg/d.

aribadabar I don't know if I am extremely sensitive to fisetin but I know for a fact that I have a leaky gut. Maybe that's why fisetin absorbs better. So, what would be the maximal or effective doses that could be used on a daily basis (let's forget for a moment that I have a leaky gut). 200, 300 mg a day? Because as I read in the Amazon's review a 500 mg dose a day for five consecutive days is considered to have a senolytic effect and it was used in some kind of a protocol (don't remember the name). And then there is the other version of the protocol ie. 3 grams per day for 3 consecutive days... Of course it's all a matter of experimentation what is good for you and what works for you but I would like to know opinions of more experienced people here...

David C Thats impressive. So you started to look younger than you used to or your looks stopped aging? What else have you noticed long term doing this?

David C Very interesting. I am very eager to hear any long term effects of these relatively new approaches like senolytics since we dont have many long term experiences. Have you considered doing a DNA age test to see what is happeing?

David C What are your thoughts on AAKG instead of C-AKG?  And what brand of Fistein are you using?

David C 

Where do you buy your C-AKG ?

There is one downside of A-AKG. In people like me where just about any supplement will cause side effects, A-AKG causes severe headaches. This is due to arginine being produced during A-AKG metabolism. I didn't even know that something like C-AKG is available... but now I will probably try it out.

Speaking of side effects... many supplements will make me sleepy and NMN as well as niacin make me very sleepy. I know that it has something to do with GABA receptor in my brain being overactive / too abundant because, for example, taurine makes me sleepy too. It just knocks me down... I'm wondering if anyone has an idea how to counteract this sleepiness...

And speaking of counteracting sleepiness... fisetin is very good at this... I'd say too good. Here is my experience that I gathered after a few days of experimentation.

I took 500 mg on the first day, then 800 mg on the second day - felt like that was enough because I could barely sleep after taking 800 mg. So I decided to stop for a few days but this break lasted only 1 day because I read above that one should take fisetin with oil or dissolve it in oil. My go-to oil in such cases is MCT oil.

Boy, it worked better than expected. After taking 100 mg dissolved in a table spoon of MCT oil the effects were greater than 800 mg before. Of course this still requires confirmation because I had to take a break from fisetin once again - after 100 mg and MCT oil I could barely sleep - I kind of slept but I could recall all of my dreams (I like that state of mind where you are able to recall dreams but to an extent and not for the whole night) and had to wake up every two hours.

So, I guess now I need to try 50 mg dissolved in MCT oil and see how that goes.

The problem is that I don't know if 100 mg dissolved in MCT oil is the high dose (used for senolytic clearing of your cells) or the small dose (let's call it a maintenance dose).

Anyways, I am kind of thrilled to have found this new way that fisetin works for me though some adjustments have to be made - or maybe I will get used to the higher dose and that will be it.

One thing that I also fing strange is that fisetin makes me agitated and I feel very well on it and people above wrote that it made them sleepy. I would expect fisetin to make me sleepy too but it worked in a completely different way.

David C 

How is the stack above going for you?

Still feeling/looking half your age?

Did you drop the Oxytocin ?

Joe F How did you figure out this dosage?  I am taking 1500mg of fisetin 5 days in a row once a month.  I didn't feel any major side effects.

Jimmy2 Jimmy2  I figured the dose from reading about studies that have been done.  For my body weight 500 mg 3X a day for 2 days and it worked, as evidenced by the drop in my PSA. 5 days might be excessive but no harm done. Un-seen good might have been done. 

Joe F I am following Dr. Alan Green's protocol (if only fisetin is take and not dastinib.) https://youtu.be/h3uG7ePEirY?t=360

Joe F I just took 100mg of Dasatinib and 2000mg of Fisetin for two days.  The first day I felt a slight headache that lasted for about three hours.  The second day I didn't get a headache but feel a little light headed.  I am now going to go to a bar to get some drinks. 😆

Joe F Is there some suppository form of cannabis?  Do you feel any physical effects without the mental high?  I too don't care for mentally numbing effects of the plant.

Joe F Thanks, Joe.  I know some that could benefit from your discovery also.  

David C Good to see you're alive and kicking, we need to wake this group up. 

Still doing 3 - 3 with Fisetin?

Thomas E Eliopulos 

Hi Thomas - just my 2 cents:

That Dasatinib study seems flawed in a couple ways.
1. They are doing “chronic” dosing by injection: daily doses by injection. Periodic dosing was not looked at.

2. No control group with nothing administered.

I do not know, but think that dosing 2X/year by ingesting along with quercertain, may be something totally different.  This is something that needs to be studied further.

BobM I don't Bob. My understanding is that Fisetin seems to be equally good a senolytic as Dasatinib without, as yet, the potential drawbacks

garland I am not sure if Kaempferol is considered a senolytic, actually. I am taken by much of the research showing as strong disease preventative with strong anti-cancer properties through it's impact on many biochemical pathways and disruption of messenger proteins. Same for it's effects on inflammatory and chronic disorders in general. Still researching the dosing, of which I have yet to find anything satisfying

Kaempferol Supplement — Health Benefits, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

Thomas E Eliopulos What does it do for you? Anything noticeable?

Thomas E Eliopulos Thanks for that, I'll look at it in more detail. Concerning Fisetin, are you doing the 3g/day for 3 days and a month off? I have some from a supplier that's supposed to be Fisetin but after 3 days, I didn't notice anything, maybe a 1-2 sec twitch in a leg. What's been your experience? I have Swanson's coming, 1 bottle per day for 3 days.

Thomas E Eliopulos you should get EDTA iv treatments, 20-30 of them. il bet my life you suffer from metal toxticity. should do a chelation test

Thomas E Eliopulos what is your source of Kaempferol?  Thanks 

David C Runners tend to get addicted to running because it brings on a flood of endorphins.  I was addicted to running and coffee for years.  One brings the endorphins and the other perks me up and brightens the day.  The running has now turned into walking mixed with a few high speed sprints (High Intensity Interval Training) or mountain hiking.  At my age this is less stressful to the joints, but still brings the endorphins.  The coffee?  I still drink lots of that!  

By the way, did you say you were 47, but people say you look late 20s or early 30s?  That's impressive.  At age 72 I definitely look age 72 no matter what I do.  I would include some photos, but it's just too discouraging!  LOL!

Jay Orman ditto for me with both running and coffee. Question. While I significantly thin out my face when doing lots of running and walking, I'm afraid it might also contribute to a faster aged look. What are your thoughts on that?

Michael I believe that is the case.  There is no extra fat to fill in the dips below the cheek bones and elsewhere on the  body, and, of course, the wrinkles.  So, I have more of a gaunt appearance.  

Jay Orman As I also suspected. Thank you.

Jay Orman I drink 10-15 cups of coffee daily.  Oddly, I only started drinking about 15 years ago (about age 60) after reading articles re benefits.  More & more info how overall mortality & mobidity improves with > 5 cups daily.  BTW, not due to the caffeine, as there are hundreds of chemicals in coffee.

John Ramos Fisetin frequency

My wife & I took 1st round of F + Q.  I understand human studies are few, but repeat frequency seems to be 2 - 4 weeks, although some recommend 1-2 months.  Never have I seen that periodicity associated with age, health conditions, etc. 

Assuming immune system can handle more regular dosing, I found below, early study, with D + Q, saying

... "senescent cell burden within 11 days..."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31542391/

Thoughts?

Michael_B I think we're about the same age(75 here) and on the same track so to speak. 

As for coffee, I take 1 cup of coffee/day, it raises cortisol levels.

"In short-term studies, caffeine has been shown to increase insulin levels, reduce insulin sensitivity, and increase cortisol levels." Insulin resistance?

As far as I know, Fisetin and Quercetin(with bromelain?) do the same thing, I use Fisetin only, they both have low solubility and should be taken with a fat source, I mix it with full fat yogurt(Trader Joe's Full fat honey yogurt), makes anything mixed with it very palatable. From what I've researched, it's not good to completely remove all senescent cells continuously, evidently some are beneficial. That's why the break in between doses. 

The link you included is for Dasatinib(hard to get prescribed, cancer drug) and Quercetin.  

Don't forget Metformin(longevity), easier to get prescribed. I can't get it prescribed but I can buy it cheaply in a 1 Kilo amount.

John

John Ramos I don 't know where you are located, but for years, although with Rx from holistic MDs, Publix pharmacies / at their supermarkets, provided Metformin free.  I've recently moved to GA, & Publix is here too, but I have not confirmed free Metformin is still available.

Michael_B I think it's prescription only now here, it is easy to get in other countries. Easy to get if you have diabetes 2

"Metformin-containing medicines are available by prescription only and are used along with diet and exercise to treat type 2 diabetes. Metformin helps control blood sugar in a number of ways."

California

John

Michael_B If they both do this same thing with Fisetin being more potent, why not just stick to Fisetin? 

?

John Ramos Hypochondriac? LMAO 

John Ramos Care to divulge where you get Metformin cheaply? Can you get it without a prescription?

Dean W. China, good source, I've been buying from 2 of them for years. It's where I got my Mag Threonate, Resveratrol, Alpha Ketoglutarate and some others. 

Dean W. Imported, yes.