Any results from D & Q course?

Has anyone noticed any perceivable results from a D & Q treatment?   

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  • Well here is something interesting, but of no value. I did my first ever 5 day fast, and for the last 3 days of it also did my first ever D&Q regimen. My very mild self diagnosed arthritis disappeared, its been 7 months.  But I have been doing a lot of other things as well...

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      • Jared
      • Jared77
      • 9 mths ago
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      Bruce B yeah hard to pin it down when we do multiple things but for me D & Q make a noticeable difference to my skin. 

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      • EVA
      • EVA
      • 9 mths ago
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      Jared could you please share your D&Q regimen? What difference do you see in your skin? I purchased OneSkin whose founder claims it can improve skin health on the molecular level by addressing aging from within. I have used it for more than 3 weeks now and I haven't noticed any significant or even small results. I am committed to use the whole bottle before I share my final judgement. It claims it can remove age spots but I don't have any. It also claims it will restore firmness. I'm looking for restoring my skin thickness. I feel the skin on the back of my hand, not the face, has started to become less thick and crepey. I have always avoided the sun like a vampire but this skin thinning should have endogenous some root causes. I used the Rapa cream formula and I didn't see any results and the DSMO irritates my skin. 

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      • Jared
      • Jared77
      • 9 mths ago
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      EVA I did 2.5 mg/kg of dasatinib and 20mg/kg of Quercetin each dose.  2 doses at those values one week apart.  

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      • EVA
      • EVA
      • 9 mths ago
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      Jared if I understood it correctly you take 2 doses of D&S 2 days in a row and repeat it every two weeks. Do you give your body any break? How long after starting this regimen you noticed the improvement in your skin? What characteristic of your skin has improved, elasticity, thickness, moisture or firmness? 

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      • Jared
      • Jared77
      • 9 mths ago
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      EVA sorry.  No I take one dose per week for two weeks.  So two doses one week between each dose. Then I repeat it a month later.  
      recently I switched to 100mg dasatinib, 2000mg fisetin every 2 weeks because it would save me some dasatinib but I don’t notice the same effect.  I think the Quercetin works better than the fisetin and I think the dasatinib has to reach a therapeutic threshold of 2.5mg/kg which is 200mg for me. 
      I think my skin is thicker.  It appears lifted on my face.  I think the pigmentation is more even.  It’s hard to pinpoint what’s different but I noticed when I’d put my winter hat on I didn’t look as old. So it seemed my mid face was lifted.  The confirmation was when my wife asked what I had done.   She thought I had injected dermal fillers.  I hadn’t told her I took the senolytics.  I was testing it out on myself 1st.  She noticed about 3 days after my 2nd dose.  
      You do get flu like side effects.  I feel very tired the day I take them but by the next day I’m back to normal.  1st signs of improvement come 3-4 days after each dose.  I noticed a little bit after my 1st dose but then I convinced myself I was imagining the improvements.  But when my wife noticed that meant there was a profound improvement.  I feel like I’ve back tracked a bit since trying the alternate regime though.  So you may have to do it indefinitely to keep the results.  Hope this helps. 
       

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      • EVA
      • EVA
      • 9 mths ago
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      Jared thanks for your clarification and your detailed explanation. I have taken a few rapa cycled  but I didn't see any effects on my skin. I've done 3 days of fisetin 2 times 6 months apart and didn't see any results on my skin. I'm going to follow your regimen. Skin is the best organ to tell us if something is working.  I truly appreciate your sharing the experience with us. 

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      • Jared
      • Jared77
      • 9 mths ago
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      EVA yeah honestly I wasn’t expecting to see any differences to my face.  I was thinking I’d maybe have better performance at the gym or recovery or lose some fat.   It was unexpected and now my wife wants to get in on the action.  She can’t have me looking younger can she?

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  •     I am 87 years old.  I have been doing some form of 3-day D+Q senolytic sessions about every 6 months for the past several years.  Before starting, I had several colonoscopies in which 5-10 pre-cancerous polyps were removed.  My last colonoscopy turned up only a single millimeter-size polyp, and I attribute this change to the senolytics.

        Also, my skin is less papery and my face and neck are smoother.  My energy level is good.  I do competitive dog agility with my two Shetland Sheepdogs.  In weekend trials we tend to do better than almost all of our 20-50 year old competitors, qualifying in at least half of our runs in every trial.

        In the last few senolytic sessions I have added Fisetin to D+Q, and in the future I intend to add Ginger Root Extract (see my post), which in human fibroblast skin cultures has been shown to be a bit more effective then D+Q in clearing senescent cells.

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      • Fred Cloud
      • Fred_Cloud
      • 9 mths ago
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      JGC Interesting. Have you considered doing monthly with at least the fisetin? I have seen many reports on fisetin users on here and other forums that notice a wearing off effect of fisetin after 3-4 weeks. Mayo clinic protocol suggests monthly and Dr Green is even doing dasatinib and fisetin twice a month. I think that is probably too frequent but people who are using it monthly have noticed a big difference over just a few times per year. Personally I do fisetin monthly and then Dasatinib quarterly and found it to be the best of both worlds.

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      • Jack Black
      • Jack_Black
      • 9 mths ago
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      JGC I appreciate your posts. Have Fisetin and D stockpiled but want to complete a 4 month Rapa course before I go for a proper D & F protocol, but I've got a lot from your posts to this forum. Thank you.

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      • JGC
      • Retired Professor of Physics
      • JGC
      • 9 mths ago
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      Fred Cloud 

          I have on occasion spaced senolytic sessions 3 months apart, when I had some indication of persistent muscle pain, etc.  However, the unresolved question is how fast the body burden of senescent cells builds up to a level where clearance is appropriate.  My guess is that it's about 6 months.   It probably doesn't hurt to do senolytic sessions more often, but there could be the problem that you become desensitized to the procedure from overuse.

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  • I'm interested to see your anecdotal evidence that D&Q is better than D&F. A lot of the coverage last year was Fisetin being better.

    I had read that we shouldn't do Rapamycin at the same time as these senolytics. Do you folks heed that advice or are trying both?

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  • I do my D&Q&F toward the end of week 2 of my biweekly rapa in order to minimize interference.

    I also take 500mg each Q&F with my 100mg dasatanib, then 2 hours later take a smaller  Q&F along with piperine, the hope being that my piperine hasnt enhanced the dasatinib but will enhance the Q&F.

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  • Can someone explain the thinking that rapamycin will interfere with senolytics?

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    • Jared Dr. Green explained in an interview that senolytics are trying to kill the cells, whereas rapamycin is trying to keep them alive via autophagy. Not a very thorough explanation but he felt there could be interference so that is why he separates senolytics from rapamycin.

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      • Jared
      • Jared77
      • 9 mths ago
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      chuck stanley yeah that doesn’t explain much.  I’ve seen a bunch of people say it but I’d like to know the mechanism of that thinking. 

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      • Jared
      • Jared77
      • 9 mths ago
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      chuck stanley that’s interesting.  I assume it could go the other way too similar to how the autophagy from fasting mimicking diet makes normal cells less susceptible to chemotherapeutics as opposed to cancer cells .  The autophagic state protects the normal cells leaving the cancer cells exposed.   I guess it depends how scenecent cells respond to rapamycin but perhaps rapamycin could enhance senolytics by protecting normal cells.

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  • So I took another dose of D & Q at the 2.5mg/kg D and 20mg/kg Q and again I see an improvement to my face.  I honestly can’t pinpoint what the difference is but it’s noticeable. That being said if I take a photo I can’t see the improvement from before and after.  I’m not sure if it’s skin clarity or thickness or tightness but it’s definitely not my imagination.  I plan to take another dose tomorrow (a week after initial dose). It may require a few months of doses to get good photographic evidence.  

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  • hi guys im new just signed up ... im a 72 year old physicist but have been studying human biochemistry since i was 26 (specifically the ageing process). now to business... My understanding in the D+Q experiments the time to rejuvenation (after dosing) was 2 months. Considering that normal lifespan is 24 months and assuming human and mouse responses are equal (which they certainly are not) would hint at equivalent human rejuvenation at approximately 6 years or 1/12 of our lifespan. in other words...we are probably not there yet. Whether or not, along the way, we are capable of seeing intermediate results is questionable and likely subjective. This is the essence of what bio- researchers call anecdotal evidence.

        Please do not misunderstand, I am arguing for Patience, not against experimentation. I too have extensively dabbled in senolytics since the day I read kirkland's seminal paper that immediately changed everything I had learned about ageing from the "old days". I must say I have been impressed by the quality of some of the experiments I have read here. So what, is everybody trained in laboratory technique now days? Just kidding.

        So here's what i see:

    1 many researchers, as well as some on this site, have argued for an objective measure of progress toward rejuvenation. Kirkland himself in a followup paper speaks to the difficulty of achieving this because of what he calls, the large variety of different senescent cells that respond differently to various attacks. That said it is clear to me much of senescence is directed by the mitochondria (perhaps partially controlled by the nucleus). Therefore much of the research is correctly directed at apoptosis (the natural process of cell death that these "zombie cells" are conspiring to avoid). But even in this particular case, a biochemical test to identify the death of these cells from senolytic use appears elusive.  So we are left with what we can share here to try and fathom any progress we are making. To a physicist, who likes to have the world explained in building blocks (from the bottom up), this is akin to "stamp collecting" and then looking for patterns. Still it's what we have, here on the front lines and it is exciting to be at the forefront, (besides, the alternative is to circle the bowl waiting for the next flush). So on this subject, if any one knows of a revealing test, or even a paper on point in identifying senescent cell death, im all ears.

    2 Arrogance: We are here engaged in trying to do something that has never been done before....If you are not arrogant you probably don't belong here. My own test for arrogance is the number of times I make the same mistake before i realize that the physical universe is not cooperating with my expectations. (this test does not include any reference to Quantum Theory, which I blame for the disappearance of socks in the dryer). So please feel free to correct me, (cause if I aint learning, i aint growing and if I aint growing i'm dying...and that just ruins the whole experiment).

     

    3 Safety: It is common knowledge on this forum that large intermittent doses of senolytics is the key to rejuvenation. In your preparation for a new experiment be sure to first titrate the dose. Because people are different (biochemical individuality), you can have a bad reaction to anything, so test with a little first. I was pleased to note that one recent contributer was quite salient on this point (could there be a doctor in the house?). Cant remember his name...I remember impressions not names which is why i cant spell. Anyway, to the point, If we were all the same, this forum would not exist because all human problems would be solved already, so be careful.

    4 Lisanti, Michael P.

    I have not noticed any discussion of this researcher on this forum. He has developed a protocol for the destruction of cancer stem cells. and has thus explained the reason that cancer comes back. The protocol is DAC: Doxycycline, Azithromycin, and vitamin C. He has stated that the antibiotics can be given in sub-antimicrobial doses because of their senolytic properties to "corral" the nasty cancer stem cells, leaving them vulnerable to faulty mitrochondrial regeneration, which is then "pushed" with vitamin C to their eventual destruction. (no more looking over your shoulder for cancer to return.) If you think this is hooey, the med literature is replete with low dose Azithromycin being given to CF patients with terribly scarred nonfunctional lungs to effectively remodel their lung tissue. This protocol is expected to be effective for all damaged lung tissue regardless of source. It is clearly the senolytic ability of Azithromycin that removes the built up inflammatory senescent lung cells allowing replacement by the healing properties of the body. This is akin to the senolytic developed by unity biotechnology that in clinical trials is repairing advanced macular degeneration in people who previously were blind. But back to the point, Dr. lisanti has already run successful clinical trials on human subjects, and even better than that his published papers are easily readable to the interested and can be accessed on google scholar. I highly recommend these as a portal into the entire field of antibiotic senolytics, and as another addition to your bag of tricks.

    Its a new world gentlemen....have at it.

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      • Jay Orman
      • Jay_Orman
      • 4 mths ago
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      phil byers You have found a topic I've never heard of before.  I scanned through the article "Doxycycline, Azithromycin and vitamin C (DAV) : a potent combination therapy for targeting mitochondria and eradicating cancer stem cells (CSCs)" and find it interesting.  Do you know the exact dosages of Doxycycline, Azithromycin and vitamin C that were used?  If not overly complicated and safe this may be an excellent "Self Experiment" to pursue.  Here is a current link.  Look for the pdf download near the top for anyone wanting to read all 16 pages of the research.  

      https://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/51224/?template=banner

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      • Michael_B
      • Hypochondriac
      • Michael_Berger
      • 4 mths ago
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      Jay Orman Hi, Phil, Jay, et al:

      Thanks for the info.  I've spent number of years reading about approaches to cancer -- mostly holistic -- but also have never heard of Doxycycline, Azithromycin and vitamin C (DAV). 

      However, doing a quick search, there are a few papers, but so far I have not found any human studies, nor individuals, with any results -- even anecdotal.  Even in holistic area, there are at least 200+ approaches to cancer.  One uses very high C, IVs with 100+ grams each,  that many claim as successful. (I also wonder if the DAV approach might work with the holistic approach IPT (insulin potentiation therapy,)

      In pharm area, I suspect thousands of anti-cancer approaches. My holistic MD for 20 years, said he was taught by professor at med school, that if you want to find a drug without negative side effects, use one recently brought to market!

      Nobody can try all the methods, & whether with cancer, anti-aging, or just supplements generally, I like to see / hear about some real positive outcomes.  That is one reason I find the F + Q (even D+Q) so exciting, & both I & my wife (each > age 70) have started taking.

      Separately, Phil -- & others -- please check out a posting I placed today in Self-experimentation, "Muscle Testing as a means to monitor..."  It may be an approach at least 'til we have precise, useful tests for zombie cells, etc.

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