Treatment for Reducing Arterial Plaque and Imflammatory Cells:

I would like to start this as a focused topic.

Background: I’m 69, have followed Bill Faloon / Life extension protocols for about 10 years. Doing the Dasatinib / Quercetin and Rapamycin treatments since mid last year. I have very low body fat, eat very healthy and have outstanding blood work. Model ldl/GSK triglycerides. Very low inflammatory markers. 

Now I have 2 stints. Fixed 95 and 90% blockages in two main arteries.  I was fortunate to go in to ER before some serious heart damage happened.

So digging into why:  Plaque accumulation on the inner area of the artery wall. 

So for me, figuring out how to REDUCE plaque seems like the biggest life extension action I can take. And I am sure this is true for many others. 
 

Consulting with my heart doctor was not fruitful. He prescribed the cookbook set of meds: 10 mg of Lipitor, 40mg of Avorstatin, 61 mg aspirin, 75 mg Plavix (clopidogrel).

I got  some good advise from folks on another forum herein. Found Avorstatin helps LDL/HDL but does nothing for plaque or inflammation. I’m now taking 40mg of Crestor, in place of the Avorstatin.

See Birmingham Medical News, New Plaque Study highlights Power of Crestor.

Very good!

Other: I’m looking to change Lipitor blood pressure med to Ramipril. This product seems to lower inflammation levels in the blood, whereas Lipitor does not.

Questions for discussion:

What else can we do to reduce plaque?

Is there something we are doing in our healthy protocols which causes more plaque buildup?

Cellular Inflammation in the Blood: how is this really measured? How do we reduce naturally? Do any of our senolytic treatments knock this down?

All: please pass along any good research things you have seen.

This is a great group!

Thank you!

BobM
 


 

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    • BobM
    • BobM
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Hi Folks, 

    So I had my long awaited appointment with my new Cardiovascular Disease Prevention doctor at Mayo Clinic. A Top doc in this field. He reviewed all my data with me. Had spent some time in studying before our meeting. Said I was in the top 1% of people, given my data and what I was doing. Went on to say the most important measurement and goal for me should be reducing LDL to 30. I am now at 49. Am down from 72 a year ago. He rather summarized that all the other testing was noise. 
    He said I might need a cholesterol absorption blocking drug to get to that number.

    Ok, simple enough.

    Now today I read the very interesting paper:
    https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2020/08/reducing-ldl-cholesterol-is-the-wrong-target-for-cardiovascular-disease/

    I think this paper has a lot of merit, but tainted slightly by the expected future commercial side of the 2 research companies. Of course I will try this as soon as it’s available. 

    Still want to know how to measure progress... my new doc was not a big fan of CIMT testing. 🤨

     

    On the question of benefits from men giving blood: he said none.

    Cheers to all!

    Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud 

      Hi Fred, good question. I think I may not have framed this post well enough. In essence he said all my other data was very good, and the LDL was the area he wanted to concentrate on, for me.

      That and full Greek Diet every meal. Forgot to mention that.

      The cholesterol blocker Being considered was Zetia/ Ezetimibe. 

      Like
    • BobM Bob if it wasn't Mayo I would say something to the effect the recommendation was in the vain of Male Bovine Fecal Matter. 

      I f you google low cholesterol and all cause mortality you will find multiple papers that found cholesterol can be too low and result i n cancer, liver disease and dementia to name a few. To reach 30 you will have to reduce total C to about 100.

      Be careful. 

      Like 1
    • BobM So do you have heart disease or some sort of issue that you are trying to resolve like a bad cimt test or high calcium score or is this strictly prevention?

      Like
    • BobM LDL doesn’t tell you what you need to know.  Nee CIMT or CAC. If either is getting worse doesn’t matter what your cholesterol is. 
       

      plus low LDL is associated with higher all cause mortality. My dad was on statins and died of sepsis - a common outcome of low LDL

      Like 1
    • BobM The mayo clinic operates in a very traditional orthodox conservative antiquated fashion and these kind of docs usually are operating on 15-20 year old data. Dont be fooled because it is the mayo clinic or he is a top doc, they are behind. If you want some good information just do your own research. Read track your plaque by dr davis and other information out there.

      Like 2
      • David H
      • David_Hanson
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Fred Cloud Whoever (doctor and institution) put in his stents did him no favor.  Stents only help if there is a mycardial infarction.  Due to financial considerations and just plain tradition, the medical industry just keeps doing what has been shown not to work.

      Like
    • Fred Cloud Fred you are full of it with respect to your comments on Mayo. My wife was rescued by Mayo Docs  from procedures undertaken by numerous Chicago area physicians. Suggest you take trip to Rochester Mn., and talk to numerous individuals in the waiting rooms of the Mayo facilities who will relay to you the same message that I just relayed to you about Mayo rescuing their family members.

      I was also surprised by what the Mayo Doc in Az told Bob and agree with you on the Davis book. As I told Bob in earlier comments, I am alive today because of my visits to Davis in Wis. based on articles in wrote for LEF after I had emergency bypass over 25 years ago.

      Bob if you are reading this,  and as I told you before, go fish oil and statins and thank you Dr. Davis for putting me on the fish oil/statin path . Fish oil is miraculous for those of us who are prone to ischemic heart attacks. and is still dismissed by the majority of cardiologists. I recently was looking for a cardiologist after my cardiologist retired. One I visited said fish oil was worthless. Anther told my wife she could stop taking it.

      Like
    • Peter H. Howe I am not saying every doc at mayo is worthless, sorry, didnt mean to imply that, I mean just in this category of cardio prevention they seem very behind and are operating under research that seems very very old and outdated which you seem to agree with me on. If the mayo cardio guy is their best and is only looking at ldl and thinks the lower the better and is ignoring particle size and doesnt believe in CIMT testing then it's obvious he isn't anywhere near current with research.

      Like 1
    • Fred Cloud Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you on the specific Doc. Since seeing Bob's E-mail, I am toying with the idea of sending letter to head of Cardio at Mayo in Rochester ( know Bob was treated in AZ) and suggest that Mayo take up fish oil/statin research or summarize existing information and develop protocol that incorporates both in treatment to prevent ischemic heart attacks in those of us who are vulnerable.

      There are 600,000 deaths/year in U.S. due to ischemic heart attacks and most are probably preventable if statin/fish oil therapy is applied. 

      Note my existing cardiologist will not prescribe over the counter fish oil even though it is 10 X cheaper and contains both EPA and DHA.  My wifes cardiologist believes that all fish oil  it is of little or no value. The first cardiologist I visited after my mine retired stated that the only reason I use fish oil is because I am a fish biologist. This clinic (North Shore) is affiliated with Mayo which is why I went there. I have mitral valve prolapse due to whooping cough I contracted in mid 1940's and need to be close in case something happens. My retired cardiologist was also of the opinion that fish oil was of little value. I stopped seeing Dr. Davis about 15 years ago as he was not convenient and the cholesterol problem was resolved..

      I do not blame the cardiologists position on fish oil as they are only parroting AHA  and do not want to be held responsible.  Note AHA just accepted prescription fish oil in terms of its ability to prevent heart attacks ~2 years ago after the paper on Vasepa. 

      I use Consumers Lab analyses to make my  fish oil selection. In this regard the latest post did not contain my current choice (Natures Bounty) that I selected based on their analyses ~4 years ago. In this regard the most recent analyses did not contain an analyses of Natures Bounty but did for Life Extension and Kirkland both of  which passed. 

      Lets see what happens. If I prepare letter will send all a copy.

      Bunch of good posts for Bob. My opinion Bob based on several papers is the best indicator of your treatments is the triglycerides/HDL ratio. A ratio of one essentially means there is no probability of an ischemic heart attack. As Ii recall from your blood test you were below one.

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter, thanks for all the great advise. I’m doing the higher dose fish oil for the past month or two— since you suggested it. 1500 mg/ meal (3x/day).

      I was at 500mg/meal.

      Like
    • Peter H. Howe I take 1,500mg of a vascepa equivalent supplement. How much do you take?

      Like
    • Fred Cloud Fred, I am going to get a little wordy in an effort to justify my actions. 

       I take 3 Natures Bounty capsules 2X/day. Each capsule has 647 mg of EPA and 253 mg of DHA for a total omega fatty acid of 5.4 grams for the 6 capsules per day. The oil is molecularly distilled to remove contaminants.

      I also take 10 mg Lipitor/day with the goal of maintaining a Triglyceride/ HDL ratio of one. This ratio will prevent an ischemic heart attack and plaque buildup and is indicative of optimum LDL-P.  I take the amount recommended by Barry Sears and by Dr. Davis for those of us who have cardiac problems. At this level and with the lipitor my Total C is ~150 and my triglycerides and HDL about 70 each. There is some variation. This was worked out by Dr.  Davis 20 years ago. There is no question in my mind that I am here today (80 in Oct.) in good health thanks to LEF and Dr. Davis after my emergency bypass 26 years ago. I came across Dr. Davis in some of his writings for the LEF magazine.

      Without the Lipitor my Total C approaches 250 and LDL-C ~140 based on 2 year study of myself I conducted about 2 years ago. So I have to have the Lipitor. I did the study to see if it would increase testosterone as I am hypogonadal. It did not. Some of the literature indicates that one of the problems with lowering cholesterol too much is that it decreases steroids as cholesterol is basis for steroids.

      Note that Vesepa does not contain DHA which is critical to prevent brain shrinkage and depression and to promote neurogenesis among some of its benefits. You can verify DHA benefits with google search. 

      Cost /bottle at Costco when on sale is $15.00 for a bottle of 130 capsules. They go on sale every other month.

      I made this choice based on analysis by Consumer Labs ~ 4 years ago. Prior to that, I used the LEF's mega EPA/DHA. Natures Bounty is less expensive and more convenient.

      However, as I indicated in previous post, Consumer Labs did not do an analysis of Natures Bounty in its last fish oil analyses a couple of months ago. They found that one of LEF's brands (not mega EPA/DHA which they did not analyze) and Costco's Kirkland brand as most cost efficient and highest quality. 

      Again, I apologize for the wordiness.  

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      hey Peter, what do you think about the comment in ConsumerLabs Q/A that “long term use of fish oil in doses over 2000 of EPS/dha may suppress the immune system. “

      Like
    • BobM Bob,thanks for the heads up.  I literally have no idea. It was my understanding that fish oil improves the immune system. I will have to investigate. I would never  never stop my fish oil. I try to keep my immune system boosted with DHEA, whey protein, probiotics, zinc, NAC and  a few other supplements/foods. 

      Like
    • Peter H. Howe Well Bob you kind of ruined my day. I followed up with ref in Consumer Lab and googled the issue and came up with following extensive review article:   ttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6834330/#B18-ijms-20-05028b.

      Most of the googled paper is above my pay grade but it does conclude, along with the Consumer Lab citation, that fish oil can decrease immunity, but with all things biological, its complicated.

      In my case, I will continue at my current use ( 5 gm/day)as I have been taking for over 20 years and have not experienced  any major infections. I do check my CBC and immune cell counts at least a couple of times per year and they are in normal range. This also includes the N/L and L/M ratios that I calculate myself from the CBC reports. 

      There is no question that fish oil does depress inflammation and proinflammatory transcription factors and cytokines. I have no indication of any arthritis or joint problems and the literature supports this benefit.

      Thanks for the heads up will keep my "eyes open".

      Like 1
    • BobM Bob, sent my second response to your question to myself. See above thread. 

      Like
    • BobM
    • BobM
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Hi Folks,

    Yesterday I had a nice meeting with my naturopathic Dr. She is excellent. We discussed the past 6 months and all the labs etc.

    She observed from my NMR blood tests, that my LDL size 19.8nm) was quite small and dense, and noted this was not good for my CVD (although all my other data was very good). You can have lots of large fluffy LDL - no problem. But this small stuff related to plaque buildup. Geese, you would have thought my 3 other MD doctors would have picked up on this!

    Her suggested intervention for this was high dosing of niacin. Up to 2000 mg/day, taken together with fish oil.  Easy enough!

    Like
    • BobM  Good to hear. I am glad to hear you found a doc that is savvy in NMR and particle size etc. I am not surprised your other 3 MD docs didnt catch it, they usually only look for things that they can prescribe a certain drug for and since there isnt a drug approved to treat particle size then they dont run or know how to interpret the tests. This puts MD's in a weird narrow way of looking at things. Naturopaths have more freedom and interventions like supplements and often have broader more up to date info than alot of MD's for preventing disease.

      Have you looked into taking tocotrienols ?

      http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/bierenbaum.html

      Like
    • BobM Bob, be careful with niacin as it can cause liver problems.  You are taking a lot of supplements based on your last communication, and these could contribute with niacin to a liver enzyme issue. Suggest you check after you have been doing it for a while. Current CBC/Chemistry bloodtest at LabCorp  through LEF is $28.50. Just ordered one myself.

      I tried niacin when I first tried to grapple with my heart disease over 20 years ago  and my enzymes skyrocketed. 

      I looked up the last blood test you took and your triglycerides dropped considerably from previous tests . Was this after you started on increased fish oil intake?  Your triglycerides/HDL ratio was almost one which suggests that LDL-P should have been on "fluffy" side.

      Also keep in mind that low total C contributes to increased mortality from all causes as I and others have pointed out to you. Increased mortality begins when Total C drops below ~160. I have to go to 140-150 to stay at the one ratio. I do this due to the  severe potential of an ischemic heart attack in my case. 

      Admire your perseverance, and good luck. .  

      Like
    • BobM Bob, the following is my second set of comments to your blood test and  naturopath meeting. Your blood test indicated that you have an optimum LDL-P value, but the particles themselves were of the dense type ( Type B in the jargon).

      I was always of the opinion that LDL- P and particle size were closely correlated, namely a low number of  LDLP  particles also indicates fluffy particle size (Type A) . This assumption was based on my own blood work over 20 years ago.

      This is apparently not the case for everyone and some of us with an optimum LDL-P still have dense or small LDL- C particles.   The attached review summary of the TG/HDL ratios discusses this  issue and provides a reference that approximately 20 % of us with a low TG/HDL ratio and low LDL-P number still  have type B particle size.  I have attached a second summary from a Dr Attia pod cast that also indicates the same. You have to track the dialogue to the end to see the final conclusion. But he says, as does the first paper, that the LDL-P number is far more important. 

      Sorry about the confusion I may have caused. Because of my own proclivity to a heart attack, I had to do some research for myself to check my own assumptions.

      The bottom line is that a TG/HDL rsatio of 1 indicates virtually no chance of a heart attack and numerous papers document this. It also indicates that you have your insulin resistance under control. 

      Like 1
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter, these 2 references were a great read!

      I do appreciate you taking the time to share this!

      Like
    • BobM Bob (and many others), don't know if you saw the "Forever Healthy" just released evaluation of lipid monitoring and health risk. See attached. They concluded that best markers are Total C and apoB based on risk assessment and most accurate analytical analyses if my understanding is correct.  

      https://brain.forever-healthy.org/display/EN/Lipid+Monitoring+for+Cardiovascular+Risk

      Am sure there will be a lot of disagreement--I was surprised and main issue appears to be  the analytical method variability if my reading is correct. 

      Like
      • BobM
      • BobM
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter H. Howe 

      Hi Peter. Very timely. Thank you!

      Next month I get my follow up tests and analysis.

      ApoB was interesting!

      Now, if they could figure out the best prevention practices for reducing artery buildup, this would be great!

      Like
    • BobM Article had relevance to our previous discussions and my latest blood test . I did, for first time in 20 years,  a NMR  ( my previous was a VAP) and my particle size was an A ( Large) but my LDL-P was intermediate. Previously both were very good in my case, and I recall that yours were not which surprised me. I thought that both were always highly corelated  and this appears not to necessarily be the case due to analytical variability. 

      Keep up the fish oil.

      Have a good blood test. 

      Like
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